777 Ignition Anomoly

[arcticap]

I went to the range Sunday with a new container of 777 3F to try in my Remington 1858 for the first time. I loaded 25 grains with an over powder card and tried not to compress it as much as I usually do when loading with APP 3F.
Early on during the first 6 full cylinders were one or two misfires which I figured were simply due to using some older Remington Golden #11 caps, even though I haven't had any trouble with ignition previously using them with APP.
However on the 7th full cylinder after loading as normal, I experienced a strange string of 6 ignition problems in a row.
Those last 6 shots consisted of 3 misfires and 3 squib loads. All 3 squib loads were expelled but not strong enough to reach the target at 12 yards.
I removed the cylinder without recapping and found that the balls were missing from all 6 chambers, even the 3 that had misfired.
Those chambers still had the over powder cards in them, however the cards were moved forward and were offset.
Looking under the cards, I was surprised to find that those 3 chambers were still fully loaded with powder. I ended up dumping the 777 on the ground while showing my shooting partner how they were still full.
The nipples weren't clogged or else the balls would have never been expelled by the misfires.
And for some reason, the troubles happened to all 6 chambers on the same 7th full cylinder, and all in a row.
I thought that this was strange enough to label as an anomoly because what are the chances of ignition trouble affecting every chamber at the same time?
The setting on my Triple P loader was left in the same position as most of the other full cylinders that I had previously loaded.
Maybe the powder was compressed too much. The fffg is a superfine powder granulation, and it was only sitting in the flask for less than an hour or two on a comfortably cool day. So I don't think that it went bad that fast.

It worked fine up until that point and the targets were fairly good, especially the last 18 shots up until the last cylinder full. (See below)
I was very surprised to see that the #11 caps were strong enough to expel the balls in the 3 chambers that misfired. I'm pretty sure that's directly attributable to the fairly tight fitting over powder cards that I punch out using a die. They retained enough of the expanding gas from the percussion cap to push the ball out yet the flame was not hot enough to ignite the 777.
I really don't intend to use 777 in my Remington anymore, at least not on a regular basis. It occurred to me afterward that any one of those last 6 shots could have become lodged in the barrel. Fortunately none of them did become lodged and no harm was done.
I've never had any notable ignition problem using 777 in other any other guns before. The powder shot fine up until that point, but the Triple P loading press that I use invites compressing the powder. I really didn't think that a little compression would hurt. Especially after the fairly accurate results of the 4th, 5th and 6th full cylinders of balls.
777 would probably benefit from using a booster charge to help insure ignition, or hotter or magnum caps. Perhaps this was all due to my loading method, or the Golden caps, or the nipples becoming more constricted with residue. But I would rather load with APP than to have a repeat of what happened today by loading this Pietta Remington with 777.
In hindsight, I should have used the newer Remington Green caps and not the older Remington Golden caps.

 

[chicharrones]

I'm new at the cap and ball game. I can't figure out how the lead ball would make it down the restriction of the barrel if the powder didn't go off. Even if the balls did come out of the chamber on the open sides, it would seem they are loose and basically rolling out from the hammer strikes. Wouldn't a ball be seated tighter than a overpowder card?

I can say that in my newness to C & B, that the only powder I've used so far is Triple 7 with CCI #11 caps in my Pietta 1860. It all worked and worked very well. Instant and strong ignition of all shots fired so far. I have not used wads or cards.

Just to add, I only used the gun's own loading lever and I pressed pretty dang firmly to seat the balls.

 

[dogrunner]

I'd suspect contaminated powder.........you should have tried to ignite that stuff with a match to verify it was ok. I am surprised that the cap alone was sufficient to eject the ball.

My own exprience with 777 is that it ignites easily and is substantialy more powerful than black or other bp substitutes.

My own experience with the stuff was also with a Remington copy and I didn't even bother to measure, just filled the cylinder to about 1/4 inch under and then used a wad and rb. Accuracy was quite good, but the diff. between that stuff and the same volumetric load of black was similar to a standard .38 spl and a stout .357 load.

I'd try it again, if it does the same thing then I'd test the unfired charge as suggested.

 

[mykeal]

I recall a report (which I can't seem to find right now) that one of the combustion by-products of the synthetic powders was a small amount of water; 777 was included in the report. Perhaps, and this is just speculation, that after 6 rounds of firing, enough water had accumulated around the nipple face in the chamber that it contaminated the next load.

It's unusual, but not unheard of that a cap ignition would expel a ball. Undersize chambers in which the chamber diameter is less than the bore groove diameter, are fairly common, in fact more common than correctly sized chambers. That would mean that all you'd really have to do is dislodge the ball and get it moving, and the cap could do that. I'd check the chamber diameters and groove-to-groove diameter.

Just a couple of ideas that may shed some light. it's still a mystery, though.

 

[MCgunner]

Never had a problem with it in my Navy or ROA or inline rifle. Perhaps it's the nipples on the gun? Maybe the powder did get contaminated. APP goes bad FAST on me, but I live on the humid gulf coast.

 

[Cult of 1858]

I recall a report (which I can't seem to find right now) that one of the combustion by-products of the synthetic powders was a small amount of water; 777 was included in the report. Perhaps, and this is just speculation, that after 6 rounds of firing, enough water had accumulated around the nipple face in the chamber that it contaminated the next load.

Mykeal - I think you are correct here.

Some powders cause the chambers to 'sweat' and collect small amounts of moisture. I have no idea why this is, but yeah, i remember an article about this too, I 'think' it was in Shotgun News a couple of years back.

Anyhoo. After shooting a cylinder, get a rag in there and wipe it out, then get a Q Tip and get the crap from the back of the chamber where it clogs the nipple. For some reason these residues seem to be damp and almost tar like with 777. Loading dry powder onto this gunk is going to cause problems after a few reloads.

If you are finding a chamber without ball, but with powder, then the ball came out of the front of the cylinder due to recoil. Facts, if the cap went off, then the powder should too. A cap doesnt have enough power to eject a ball without the powder going with it.

 

[andrewstorm]

cheap caps n wet powdeer

sounds like to me ,does anyone ever fire caps before loading? i do not but my r o a s allways go boom with 777 3f and cci mag 11s every time. of corse i keep my powder in a ammo can. and caps are stored accordingly

 

[arcticap]

A cap doesnt have enough power to eject a ball without the powder going with it.

The caps alone did have enough power to eject a ball in part due to loading with these over powder cards.





When I measured one ball out of the new box of Hornady .451 balls, it measured .451 one way, but was undersized when measured in 2 other places. So the balls were slightly looser than other boxes of Hornady .451 balls that I've had, and weren't always cutting as much of a lead ring as normal.

 

[whosyrdaddy]

I had an experience nearly identical to yours with 777 once. On the sixth shot it occurred to me that in my haste, I had forgotten to load the balls.

 

[arcticap]

I had an experience nearly identical to yours with 777 once. On the sixth shot it occurred to me that in my haste, I had forgotten to load the balls.

are you sure you remembered to load the balls on that last cylinder?

One can only speculate on these things but I really don't see how a cap could develop enough pressure to drive a ball out of the cylinder and through the bore without also expelling the wad....
...I once thought I'd get rid of some T7 powder by making up blank loads for a .45 Colt cartridge gun. It didn't work. The primer simply blew the T7 and wad out of the barrel like a load of tiny birdshot and the only sound was the pop of the primer. T7 needs resistance to build up pressure to burn properly.

After a lot of consideration I've come to the conclusion that I must have forgotten to load the balls and then fired off all of the chambers with only powder and over powder cards.
There's really no other explanation considering that three cylinders only popped which I thought were squibs, and 3 cylinders didn't fire off at all probably due to lack of compression.
If the balls were loaded as I thought then I believe that the powder would have fired just like all of the other full cylinders did.
It was so odd that I didn't want to even consider that in my haste to load before my predetermined time to leave the range to go somewhere, that I must have rushed and left out loading the balls.
It's hard to admit but it's not as bad as dry balling the entire cylinder 6 times in a row and then having to remove each one I guess.
And once I put the over powder cards in each chamber, I must have had a senior moment and installed the cylinder without the balls in it.
That's the 1st time that ever happened to me. But if that's what did happen, then just admitting the possibility helps to insure that it won't happen again.
And what happened is what I really wanted to know.
I probably shouldn't have even mentioned the topic, but maybe posting about it has helped me to figure it out.
I wanted some answers and that's the best that I can come up with.
It's better than blaming it all on the powder.
Thanks for everyone's input which helped me to ponder about it long and hard enough to come up with this explanation.

 

[mykeal]

That's certainly possible. Don't ask me how I know. I also managed to charge all 6 once without having the nipples installed. A companion walking by noticed the powder on the ground and all over my shoes. Don't we have fun?

 

[45-70 Ranger]

No damage done. No one got hurt. That's what counts! The rest is "lessons learned" as we used to say in the army.

Wade

 

[arcticap]

That's right, I'll just "Carry on!"

 

[Mr. Melcher]

I have an 1858 and it shoots great with fffg 777. Prior to actually loading real charges I always shoot an empty cylinder's worth with only caps to ensure that any oil gets cleared from inside the nipples.