bigcim
Member
hey guys give me your best. Not only to be used for hunting but 500 to 800 yrds at the range once in a while also. I trust your advise thanks
7mm rem vs 30-06
- Thread starter bigcim
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priv8ter
Member
Well...
As far as their ability to take game, I am sure that at one time or another, each of these cartridges have been used to take anything in North America, even the big bear and moose. So...I'd rather not even address that part of the equation. Both will get the job done, the 7mm with a bit more flash and bang.
If you are serious about wanting to do range time at 500-800 yards, then that will be easier with the 7mm Rem Mag than the .30-06. But...it's still not a laser beam.
Looking at Federals Website, when sighted for 200 yards, a 165gr .30-06 load will drop 47 inches at 500 yards.
A 160gr 7mm Rem Mag load is droping 39 inches...so like I said, you still are gonna need some serious ballistics charts, even with the Rem Mag.
Back in High School, I choose the 7mm Rem Mag, because it was the gun I found in my price range...I would have been just as happy with the old -06.
If it was me now, Well...then I would buy an .30-06 for hunting, and pick up a NEF Handi-Rifle in .22-250 for the long range practice at the range.
Good luck to you!
greg
As far as their ability to take game, I am sure that at one time or another, each of these cartridges have been used to take anything in North America, even the big bear and moose. So...I'd rather not even address that part of the equation. Both will get the job done, the 7mm with a bit more flash and bang.
If you are serious about wanting to do range time at 500-800 yards, then that will be easier with the 7mm Rem Mag than the .30-06. But...it's still not a laser beam.
Looking at Federals Website, when sighted for 200 yards, a 165gr .30-06 load will drop 47 inches at 500 yards.
A 160gr 7mm Rem Mag load is droping 39 inches...so like I said, you still are gonna need some serious ballistics charts, even with the Rem Mag.
Back in High School, I choose the 7mm Rem Mag, because it was the gun I found in my price range...I would have been just as happy with the old -06.
If it was me now, Well...then I would buy an .30-06 for hunting, and pick up a NEF Handi-Rifle in .22-250 for the long range practice at the range.
Good luck to you!
greg
KINGMAX
Member
7 MM Mag or a .308
How about a 7MM Mag or a .308 for distance, how about that .308 = out there.
How about a 7MM Mag or a .308 for distance, how about that .308 = out there.
KINGMAX
Member
?? Does a 30.06 rise a little bit ???
Someone once told me that a 30.06 rises above the line of sight in the first 100 yards, then begins to drop off after that.
Is there any truth to that statement, does anyone know ????
Someone once told me that a 30.06 rises above the line of sight in the first 100 yards, then begins to drop off after that.
Is there any truth to that statement, does anyone know ????
priv8ter
Member
YES!
If you look at a ballistics table, I believe you will find that ALL bullets rise above the line of sight when zeroed for 100 yards.
Even at a relatively 'short' distance like 100 yards, you can not point the barrel straight at the bullseye...you actually need to aim above the bullseye.
For an example of this, you should be able to look at any Gun and Ammo Cartridge of the month...they have an actual sketch usually showing the flight path of the bullet in reference to line of sight.
I remember for my 7mm Rem Mag, it used to have a Maximum Point Blank Range of like 330 yards. To achieve this, you sighted in for 2 inches high at 100 yards. The bullet then passed the line of sight going up at 40 yards, hit a max of 4 inches above LOS at 150 yards, passed the LOS going down at 250 yards, and was 4 inches low at 330 yards.
greg
DISCLAIMER: I really just pulled those numbers out of my bung...please don't go sight in your rifle and prove me wrong.
If you look at a ballistics table, I believe you will find that ALL bullets rise above the line of sight when zeroed for 100 yards.
Even at a relatively 'short' distance like 100 yards, you can not point the barrel straight at the bullseye...you actually need to aim above the bullseye.
For an example of this, you should be able to look at any Gun and Ammo Cartridge of the month...they have an actual sketch usually showing the flight path of the bullet in reference to line of sight.
I remember for my 7mm Rem Mag, it used to have a Maximum Point Blank Range of like 330 yards. To achieve this, you sighted in for 2 inches high at 100 yards. The bullet then passed the line of sight going up at 40 yards, hit a max of 4 inches above LOS at 150 yards, passed the LOS going down at 250 yards, and was 4 inches low at 330 yards.
greg
DISCLAIMER: I really just pulled those numbers out of my bung...please don't go sight in your rifle and prove me wrong.
KINGMAX
Member
??? what is LOS ???
What does the acronym LOS stand for ?? Thanks Is it 'LINE OF SIGHT' ???
What does the acronym LOS stand for ??
Thanks Is it 'LINE OF SIGHT' ???priv8ter
Member
yes
Sorry, it does mean Line-of-sight...I just got lazt about halfway through the post.
Sorry, it does mean Line-of-sight...I just got lazt about halfway through the post.
bigcim
Member
some one once told me that 7mm wear out there barrels fast is that true
Nathanael_Greene
Member
I don't imagine that many 7mm barrels have been shot out. I certainly wouldn't let that concern stand in the way of my purchasing one.
ID_shooting
Member
"Someone once told me that a 30.06 rises above the line of sight in the first 100 yards, then begins to drop off after that.
Is there any truth to that statement, does anyone know ????"
Simple answer, yes, but technically, no.
Bullets tend to rise above the LOS (line of sight) becuase they are usually fired at a slight up angle. No bullet has a lift factor that will make it gain elevation in the flight path. In fact, if you were to hold a barrel perfectly level and you were to drop a bullet from the same exact hight of the barrel at the same time you fired, they would both hit the ground at the same time provided the ground was perfectly flat.
The slight arc is done to increase the range in which your rifle is "zeroed." (The following numbers are used purly for discussion) If your bore were to be level the shot would start with a flight path 1.5 inches below the LOS. Since all bullets immediatly start to drop, the distance between the bore and LOS would gradually increase and you would have to hold over your target every time. Example, 1.5 in @ muzzle, 3 in @ 100 yds, 8 in @ 200 yds, 24 in @ 300 yds and so forth.
Since the bullet starts the drop immediatly, if you shoot at a slight up angle your bullet will beable to travel slightly further before hitting the ground. Think of a footbal or artillary round.
Besides the benefit of longer distance, when shooting game animals, you do not need to be as precise as shooting for competition. Usually the ability to place a bullet in a 6 inch circle at any given range is good enough. Because of this, your bullet can travel a bit above and below the LOS and allow you to take game. If the bullet starts 1.5 in @ the muzzle and you shoot it at a slight up angle it will cross the LOS at say 25 yds the be 1.5 in high @ 100 yds, 3 in high @ 200 yds , back down to 1.5 in high @ 300 yds , cross the LOS again at 375 yds, and be 4 in low at 450 yds.
As you can see, the distance at with you can keep your bullet in that same 6 inch circle, at least elevation wise, circle is greatly increased if you shoot it upwards instead of perfectly flat. This is also known as Point-Blank Range.
I hope this clears it up some.
Is there any truth to that statement, does anyone know ????"
Simple answer, yes, but technically, no.
Bullets tend to rise above the LOS (line of sight) becuase they are usually fired at a slight up angle. No bullet has a lift factor that will make it gain elevation in the flight path. In fact, if you were to hold a barrel perfectly level and you were to drop a bullet from the same exact hight of the barrel at the same time you fired, they would both hit the ground at the same time provided the ground was perfectly flat.
The slight arc is done to increase the range in which your rifle is "zeroed." (The following numbers are used purly for discussion) If your bore were to be level the shot would start with a flight path 1.5 inches below the LOS. Since all bullets immediatly start to drop, the distance between the bore and LOS would gradually increase and you would have to hold over your target every time. Example, 1.5 in @ muzzle, 3 in @ 100 yds, 8 in @ 200 yds, 24 in @ 300 yds and so forth.
Since the bullet starts the drop immediatly, if you shoot at a slight up angle your bullet will beable to travel slightly further before hitting the ground. Think of a footbal or artillary round.
Besides the benefit of longer distance, when shooting game animals, you do not need to be as precise as shooting for competition. Usually the ability to place a bullet in a 6 inch circle at any given range is good enough. Because of this, your bullet can travel a bit above and below the LOS and allow you to take game. If the bullet starts 1.5 in @ the muzzle and you shoot it at a slight up angle it will cross the LOS at say 25 yds the be 1.5 in high @ 100 yds, 3 in high @ 200 yds , back down to 1.5 in high @ 300 yds , cross the LOS again at 375 yds, and be 4 in low at 450 yds.
As you can see, the distance at with you can keep your bullet in that same 6 inch circle, at least elevation wise, circle is greatly increased if you shoot it upwards instead of perfectly flat. This is also known as Point-Blank Range.
I hope this clears it up some.
bigcim
Member
does the 7 have a lot more hitting force then the 30-06 at greater distances say 300 to 500 yards
ID_shooting
Member
"does the 7 have a lot more hitting force then the 30-06 at greater distances say 300 to 500 yards"
From just a quick search at Remington.com using standard 140 gr Express 7mm Rem Mag and 165 gr Express 30-06, the power nod goes to 7mm by about 150-200 ft lbs across the speed/distance spectrum.
I would expect this. I just didn't like the 7mm recoil, noise, or ammo cost so I choose 30-06 as my do-all cartridge.
From just a quick search at Remington.com using standard 140 gr Express 7mm Rem Mag and 165 gr Express 30-06, the power nod goes to 7mm by about 150-200 ft lbs across the speed/distance spectrum.
I would expect this. I just didn't like the 7mm recoil, noise, or ammo cost so I choose 30-06 as my do-all cartridge.
With all due respect, if you have to ask about energy at 500 yards, you shouldn't be hunting anything at 500 yards. That's just plain too far for a humane kill, unless you really, really know what you're doing.
I count myself among those who doesn't. I can't read wind like that, for example. I have a scope that compensates for vertical drop at that range, assuming level ground and a rangefinder, or a high-end rangefinder that calculates effective range. But wind is a different story for those of us who haven't gone through sniper training. You'd be shocked at how much a breeze can deflect a bullet in 500 yards. Most deer don't oblige by standing on level, measured ground in front of a shooting bench, so consider that when judging how far away you can hit a pie plate. On rough ground, with an odd footing, using sticks, a rock or a tree, over changing elevation, etc., you can't expect to shoot as well as in an environment set up for accurate shooting.
Most big game bolt-action cartridges shoot relatively flat to 300 yards; some a bit more and some a bit less. Then drop really starts. 7mm will shoot a bit flatter; .30-06 a bit less so, but not so much as you might imagine. .30-06 is cheaper to shoot and recoils less. That sold me on it.
I count myself among those who doesn't. I can't read wind like that, for example. I have a scope that compensates for vertical drop at that range, assuming level ground and a rangefinder, or a high-end rangefinder that calculates effective range. But wind is a different story for those of us who haven't gone through sniper training. You'd be shocked at how much a breeze can deflect a bullet in 500 yards. Most deer don't oblige by standing on level, measured ground in front of a shooting bench, so consider that when judging how far away you can hit a pie plate. On rough ground, with an odd footing, using sticks, a rock or a tree, over changing elevation, etc., you can't expect to shoot as well as in an environment set up for accurate shooting.
Most big game bolt-action cartridges shoot relatively flat to 300 yards; some a bit more and some a bit less. Then drop really starts. 7mm will shoot a bit flatter; .30-06 a bit less so, but not so much as you might imagine. .30-06 is cheaper to shoot and recoils less. That sold me on it.
Actually, some of the light mag loads exceed their 7mm mag factory counterparts (albeit by a nearly insignificant amount).
I looked it up one time when someone was thinking about getting a 7mm mag when they already had a .30-06 bolt gun. "Here, buy these."
I looked it up one time when someone was thinking about getting a 7mm mag when they already had a .30-06 bolt gun. "Here, buy these."
BillL223
Member
7mm Mag vrs 308 at distance
I friend has a Win Model 70 in 7mm Mag and I have a Remington 700 LTR Model in .308. We have shot long distance together at the range and there is little difference when at 500-600 yards. The .308 was a little better probably because I was shooting a better bullet for this application. Because many use .308 for long distance competition, there is a tremendous selection of bullets and known good loads.
I friend has a Win Model 70 in 7mm Mag and I have a Remington 700 LTR Model in .308. We have shot long distance together at the range and there is little difference when at 500-600 yards. The .308 was a little better probably because I was shooting a better bullet for this application. Because many use .308 for long distance competition, there is a tremendous selection of bullets and known good loads.
bigcim
Member
any other big differences
.30-06 is the most common game cartridge in North America. You will find a greater variety of factory ammo, for a good deal less money, in .30-06, and you'll find useful hunting ammo wherever ammo is sold. You will also find an endless variety of time-tested handload recipes for everything from low recoil target loads to loads that rival the 7mm.
The factors that influence the decision, IMO, are these real-world factors more than absolute performance numbers of factory ammo. They all favor the .30-06.
The 7mm is not an oddball round; it's not hard to get. The .30-06 has just been established as a favorite of hunters and handloaders, so it's got the edge for all the above reasons, unless money is no object and you don't care at ALL about recoil.
The factors that influence the decision, IMO, are these real-world factors more than absolute performance numbers of factory ammo. They all favor the .30-06.
The 7mm is not an oddball round; it's not hard to get. The .30-06 has just been established as a favorite of hunters and handloaders, so it's got the edge for all the above reasons, unless money is no object and you don't care at ALL about recoil.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Both are excellent "do it all" cartridges and both are probably applicible to the same variety of game. The 06 can take slightly heavier bullets, but bullets over 180 gr are, in my experience, rarely used and with modern bullets, needed even less. If you can't get it done with the construction and awesome sectional density of the .284 cal 175 gr controlled expansion bullets, lik the Nosler Partition, then chances are you need something bigger than a .30 caliber. It is my opinion that in order to get an appreciable advantage in killing power against heavy game over the 7mm Rem Mag (or .30-06, for that matter), you need something of at least .338 caliber. My bro hunts with a .300 Win and loves it, but even he maintains that there is nothing my 7mm can't do just as well with less recoil.
The 7mm, to me, seems to provide the trajectory of the .270 Win, the recoil of the .30-06, and loaded with a heavy for caliber ballistically effecient projectile like the 160 gr Accubonds I am using now, downrange energy and on game performance very similar to that of the .300 magnums. It is truely a win-win cartridge. If you can handle the recoil of an 06 in a similar weight rifle, the 7mm should provide no real obstacles and will provide slight advantages in trajectory and downrange performance.
The 7mm, to me, seems to provide the trajectory of the .270 Win, the recoil of the .30-06, and loaded with a heavy for caliber ballistically effecient projectile like the 160 gr Accubonds I am using now, downrange energy and on game performance very similar to that of the .300 magnums. It is truely a win-win cartridge. If you can handle the recoil of an 06 in a similar weight rifle, the 7mm should provide no real obstacles and will provide slight advantages in trajectory and downrange performance.
MachIVshooter
Member
The 7mm RM has been with us for nearly forty years and is one of the most popular hunting cartridges out there, falling just behing the .30-06. It is an excellent round delivering ballistics that are moderately superior to the venerable '06 (typically 10-15% increase in energy). Will it kill game better? Nope. But it's flatter trajectory does increase your MPBR, thus requiring less math to figure out where to aim at a given range. The loads for 7mm RM also tend to be loaded in the same weight range as an average '06 load, which gives them an edge in BC. Thus as range increases, the performance gap between the two will widen. That said, at responsible distances there is nothing one can do that the other can't.
Both have taken every species of game you're likely to hunt, both have drilled respectable targets at 1000 yds. The '06 was used as a sniper weapon through 3 wars, the 7mm RM is the US SS counter-sniper round.
six of one, a half-dozen of the other.
Both have taken every species of game you're likely to hunt, both have drilled respectable targets at 1000 yds. The '06 was used as a sniper weapon through 3 wars, the 7mm RM is the US SS counter-sniper round.
six of one, a half-dozen of the other.
bigcim
Member
info like this is what i need
KINGMAX
Member
***** rating on this thread great information thanks
To all that gave their .02 cents. THANKS
This is a great forum to be around
To all that gave their .02 cents. THANKS
This is a great forum to be around
bigcim
Member
anymore people like the 7
FormerUSMCMarksmanshipInstr
Member
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My 2 cents
IMO the main reason the snipers in the field chose the good ol .308 for their weapons caliber was nothing more than ammo availability. When they were forced by circumstances to procure thier own weapons, before the Corps had a actual sniper program, they chose a round they knew the characteristics of, and had readily available in quantity: The 308. The M14 and M60 shot this round, and it was a killer at range, with vastly superior punch and ballistics over a longer range than the new .223 just hitting the field. It also wouldn't be deflected AS BADLY by a slight breeze, or a twig in it's LOF. The 7mm wasn't readily available in the supply system, thus they went with what they knew. Please note they DID choose the Remington 700 series (still in use to this day by military snipers the world over) due to it's simplicity, reliability, durability and so on. It didn't jam the way the Colt M16 did with alarming regularity (don't get me started on THAT rant!), was easy to clean, shot straight, was easy to sight (just pull the bolt out and there you go), would put the round the same place over and over due to the bolt design, and so on. Couple these features with the ready availability of ammo already in the supply chain and you have the best choice of weapon/caliber for the circumstances. There's also a very good reason the US SS has chosen the 7mm Remington Mag for their counter-sniper weapon. Same weapon, different caliber. I've literally seen 4.3" groups at 1000 meters from an otherwise unsupported prone shooter. Not real sure u could do that with the .308. 500 meters, definately, 1000, probably not. So, for my money, I'd go with the 7mm RM. Don't know if all my rambling helps any or not, but there it is.
IMO the main reason the snipers in the field chose the good ol .308 for their weapons caliber was nothing more than ammo availability. When they were forced by circumstances to procure thier own weapons, before the Corps had a actual sniper program, they chose a round they knew the characteristics of, and had readily available in quantity: The 308. The M14 and M60 shot this round, and it was a killer at range, with vastly superior punch and ballistics over a longer range than the new .223 just hitting the field. It also wouldn't be deflected AS BADLY by a slight breeze, or a twig in it's LOF. The 7mm wasn't readily available in the supply system, thus they went with what they knew. Please note they DID choose the Remington 700 series (still in use to this day by military snipers the world over) due to it's simplicity, reliability, durability and so on. It didn't jam the way the Colt M16 did with alarming regularity (don't get me started on THAT rant!), was easy to clean, shot straight, was easy to sight (just pull the bolt out and there you go), would put the round the same place over and over due to the bolt design, and so on. Couple these features with the ready availability of ammo already in the supply chain and you have the best choice of weapon/caliber for the circumstances. There's also a very good reason the US SS has chosen the 7mm Remington Mag for their counter-sniper weapon. Same weapon, different caliber. I've literally seen 4.3" groups at 1000 meters from an otherwise unsupported prone shooter. Not real sure u could do that with the .308. 500 meters, definately, 1000, probably not. So, for my money, I'd go with the 7mm RM. Don't know if all my rambling helps any or not, but there it is.
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