80% lower logic?

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mshootnit

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I think I understand the reason so many 80% lowers are out there. But in a forced buyback/confiscation scenario, any govt dastardly enough to do such a thing, would also be willing to make a regulation like "any unserialed lower will be treated as stolen" or it shall be a felony for anyone to posess a non serialed lower. "
So that really defeats the whole 80% thing in my mind.
 
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I think I understand the reason so many 80% lowers are out there. But in a forced buyback/confiscation scenario, any govt dastardly enough to do such a thing, would also be willing to make a regulation like "any unserialed lower will be treated as stolen" or it shall be a felony for anyone to posess a non serialed lower. "
So that really defeats the whole 80% thing in my mind.
So engrave a serial number on it. What difference would it make if it was not registered?
 
To me an 80% lower is the same as a used gun/lower I buy private party and don't go through a background check. There's no paper records that I own it.

That doesn't mean future laws protect either, it just means there's no reason for the police to knock on my door and ask for either a specific 80% lower or for a specific gun purchased private party that I own.
 
I think its for folks who dont want any paper trail at or as little as possible. Unfourtunately i think this is also for folks who are not able to buy a gun legally too. I have mixed feelings about the 80% thing. I hate regulations but i dont want a convicted violent offender/illegal alien to be able to buy firearms either.
 
I think its for folks who dont want any paper trail at or as little as possible. Unfourtunately i think this is also for folks who are not able to buy a gun legally too. I have mixed feelings about the 80% thing. I hate regulations but i dont want a convicted violent offender/illegal alien to be able to buy firearms either.

I’m with you but most criminals are lazy. They want to get a fast score. Machining an 80% takes time, effort and patience. Things most criminals don’t have.

So yea some may go the 80% route I suspect right now it’s not a big issue.
 
In practical terms, one interested in doing harm has far easier ways than buying an 80% receiver. I can change that to a block of steel, aluminium, plastic, or even plywood, as a zero percent receiver and make an AR lower receiver that would function for at least a few rounds without tremendous difficulty. Just like the Atomic bomb at the mass level, once the secret is known how to do it, the rest is just engineering a solution that is possible to make with what you can get. By and large the greatest supply of firearms for criminals are straw buyers and obtaining firearms that are stolen from law abiding owners.

For example as the Dayton and Fresno mass murderers used straw buyers to buy as did the Columbine killers. The CT creep killed his own mother as did the Oregon and MS school murderers who killed their parents in order to steal their firearms to carry out their dirty deeds. Stolen firearms plus straw buyers generate most of the illegal use of firearms in cases. A remainder is where the perpetrator of mass horror, like in LV, decides to go out in a horrific blaze of infamy and buys their firearm quite legally. Essentially they get revenge on the world for perceived slights and don't face consequences because they either commit suicide or make the cops do it for them.

The true fact is that any decent machinist in a machine shop can make a firearm that is functional and it is even easier to make a full automatic than a semi due to parts simplicity. A bolt action shotgun can be legally made with the right barrel length and so forth with parts that you find in the plumbing section of your local hardware store. Take a look at the Sten gun for example or the creative firearms made by those in Brazil or Australia. Thugs are gunna thug and mass murderers find it easy to substitute stuff for mass mayhem. Pressure cookers can be obtained by anyone and a resulting bomb can be triggered remotely by cell phones. It is a physical impossibility to ensure a "gun free world" as the benefits of making an illegal firearm can to some individuals outweigh the costs of incarceration. You cannot eliminate the knowledge nor the means of production without becoming a large prison camp. Note that in prison, despite the total lack of rights and the supposed inability of inmates to get contraband to kill one another, that inmates still manage to maim and kill even under the very noses of the authorities. The reason is that criminals commit crimes because that is what they do--the means by which they commit crimes may change but the desire by an individual to live the thug life is responsible, not the means.

The public know this more or less which is why the lack of support for a total ban on firearms in the U.S. The rest of the world is learning that laws do not magically make thugs obey them such as in UK, Canada, Australia, etc. and as NZ will soon learn. Criminals are going to be criminals wherever a lazy pool of violent and short sighted individuals exist that would rather be barbarians to loot and pillage than a peaceful contributing member of society. The best that you can do is incapacitate these individuals from harming innocent others by removing them from society via prison terms or worse. Some may eventually prove redeemable but obviously penitentiaries did not work the way that the Quakers thought they might otherwise we should be basking in low crime rates today resulting from mass incarceration.
 
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To me an 80% lower is the same as a used gun/lower I buy private party and don't go through a background check. There's no paper records that I own it.
Take it one step further. Assemble guns using unfinished 80% lowers. If there were house-to-house searches, all that would be found would be "dummy guns," i.e., unregulated hunks of metal. With the right tools, completing an 80% lower can be done in less than an hour. Just sayin'. (Or, the unfinished 80% lower could be a placeholder for the real 100% lower, which would be stored off-site.)
 
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In regards to paper trails, 80% builds, and private transfers...

Just remember the government has been subpoenaing tech companies for data recently for other things.

Only a matter of time, if not already, that Big Brother users AI to scour emails, texts, bank statements, credit card transfers to see who has what stuff off the books. I say in the next 30 years, easy.

All for our safety.
 
Only a matter of time, if not already, that Big Brother users AI to scour emails, texts, bank statements, credit card transfers to see who has what stuff off the books. I say in the next 30 years, easy.
There's a limit to the amount of government intrusiveness that people will tolerate. What is technically possible might not be politically feasible.
 
There's a limit to the amount of government intrusiveness that people will tolerate. What is technically possible might not be politically feasible.
I agree with that. Probably 50% of the country does. The other 50% says "what do you have to hide... It's for the children".

We do have the Patriot Act and the NSA. Those are newer. Then you have the .gov going after apps and phone companies for various records.

If it happens, it will be slowly. Piece by piece.

I'm not saying this as a crazed dude with a tinfoil hat, but just as a "I guess I shouldn't be surprised" if something happens.

So not to diverge, if someone wants to look hard enough, there's always a paper trail in today's world.

But, I do wanna build some homemade stuff just to say I did for fun.
 
Having a Form 4473 on record means that the gun is de facto "registered."
I was under the impression that the form 4473 was supposed to be purged after something like 1-2 years and that it was only meant to be a background check. Not a registry. If the form is logged and filed permanently than it would be "registered". It is supposed to purged, correct?
 
For handguns, Pennsylvania has the "PICS" system and the PA-18 forms which sometimes is argued to be a backdoor database.

I wanna say there's some legal battles years ago about it. Can't remember.

As far as legislation against 80%, I think it will be against features and not whether it has serial numbers.

A 90's style AWB will apply to an 80% the same as if it were not. A registration law would require registration. If non-registered guns were illegal, it wouldn't matter if it's 80% or not, unregistered is unregistered.

Like, I can't build a full auto 80% AR15 without the proper FFL licensing. Just because it's 80%, doesn't mean there are no laws applied.

So to go back to discuss the original post, using today's logic, I would guess that if there is a gun buy back, won't matter if it's 80% or not.

It's just proving it that makes it difficult.
 
I'm sure someone in the government knows about some of the companies that are making 80% kits, I'm familiar with offerings from 1911builders, and the Poly80 stuff. There are many others. It wouldn't be surprising if the feds storm in at some point and seize the sales receipt records, showing who bought what items. Fair or not, legal or not, by that point, the government won't care about civil rights or protocols, only fulfilling their own desires for exercising power. Even if a court would rule after the fact that it was an improper search and order the lists returned, you can betcha they will have made a copy and have the information they wanted. Cash private sales would be the hardest to track, but even then not impossible, depending on how the contact between the buyer and seller occurred, or if the seller gives up the same of the buyer.
 
I was under the impression that the form 4473 was supposed to be purged after something like 1-2 years and that it was only meant to be a background check. Not a registry. If the form is logged and filed permanently than it would be "registered". It is supposed to purged, correct?

Recently 4473 form are being done online I don't believe for one second that the government will delete this information. The data base is already in progress.
 
I think I understand the reason so many 80% lowers are out there. But in a forced buyback/confiscation scenario, any govt dastardly enough to do such a thing, would also be willing to make a regulation like "any unserialed lower will be treated as stolen" or it shall be a felony for anyone to posess a non serialed lower. "
So that really defeats the whole 80% thing in my mind.
You're assuming that everyone who has those 80% lowers will remain "law abiding" in that scenario. ;)
What's left, black market and last ditch self defense?
Yes. That's what the 2A is for, last ditch self defense from tyranny.
It wouldn't be surprising if the feds storm in at some point and seize the sales receipt records, showing who bought what items.
The sales receipts only show who the manufacturer sold to via online order and/or credit card sale. Obviously using a credit card defeats the whole purpose, although it seems there are quite a few people who don't realize that.
 
Forms, laws, registry, confiscation, blah, blah, blah; it all means nothing if there are enough of you. Are you really going to let a flailing, sissy boy named Francois take your arms away? Really? My guess is that there will be enough and no you won’t. Relax.
 
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