870 Express or Pardner Pump???

[bootless]

I love my 870, 1100, and 1187. But they are all bird guns and I would like to keep them that way. I am looking for an inexpensive yet good home defense/camp shotgun so naturally I am looking at an 870 Express-18in barrel. After talking to a couple friends I am now considering a NEF Pardner-Pump. I really like the price tag and I here they are tough guns. What do you guys think about the 870 Express vs. Pardner Pump?

 

[nelson133]

The NEFs are good guns, most 870 parts fit except the barrels. This is a frequent topic, do a search.

 

[wiseguy774]

I've had an 870 Express for several years now, and it serves primarily in the HD role. I also use the Police Magnum version at work. I haven't really had much experience with a Pardner Pump but one thing to consider is the availability of accessories. 870s are one of the most frequently modded shotguns on the market. Recoil reducing stocks from Knoxx, Surefire Forends, and after market accessory rails with optics are gaining popularity with my agency. I’ve been so happy with many of these, especially the surefire lights; I’m seriously considering applying some upgrades to mine. Hope this was helpful.

 

[jlv08]

IF and that is if you can find an older Express, than I would say go for it.

That being said... there has been too much bad press for me to tell someone to buy a new Express.:

The Pardner Protecter is an excellent shotgun and is priced stupidly low for what you get in quality,

I have two in 20 and 12 gauge, walnut and blue steel, and couldn't be happier.

There are differences in the Remington and Pardner and if you are looking soley for home defense use, the Pardner Protecter gets my vote over the new Express.

Some folks say that you can find older Expresses and Wingmasters for cheap but I have seen very few in my area.

So... to keep it simple, I rolled the dice on these two Pardners and am happy I did,

I A/B them to the Mossbergs, Rems., Winchesters, and other guns where I bought the Pardners and I felt that they offered the most in fit and finish for a good basic field gun and I have less than $500 in both guns.

They have a nice matte blue finish on the barrel and the squared receiver gives a good sighting plane when you pull it up to your shoulder and they do pull up nice for me.

I have not had ANY problems with ammo feeding or jamming.

I have not had any problems with rusting like I did on a previously owned Express.

The guns have smoothed up nice and are not showing any weaknesses in fit or finish.

The trigger guard is milled aluminum, not powdered aluminum or plastic as is on the Express.

These shotguns are built to use and I have heard very few IF ANY complaints about them.

They do not rattle like some other makes do and are tight in the forearm without being hard to pump. Again, they do smooth up.

Nice guns and good luck on whatever descision you make!

 

[Matrix187]

I bought a Pardner Protector 12 ga a few days ago. Yesterday I shot 40 Federal Target Loads 2 3/4, and some 00 Federal Vital-Shok buck and it has worked perfect so far. I inspected the gun for bit and it's easy to tell it's built extremely well. You get a lot of bang for your buck buying one.

 

[MAX100]

I haven't really had much experience with a Pardner Pump but one thing to consider is the availability of accessories. 870s are one of the most frequently modded shotguns on the market. Recoil reducing stocks from Knoxx, Surefire Forends, and after market accessory rails with optics are gaining popularity with my agency. I’ve been so happy with many of these, especially the surefire lights; I’m seriously considering applying some upgrades to mine. Hope this was helpful.

Everything that fits the 870 will fit Pardner Protector except barrels & scope mounts drilled for the 870. The Hawk 982 would be a good choice if you like Ghost Ring Sights and it has a Remington style receiver. Hawk Ind in China also makes the Pardner Pump and they are the same shotgun with different style receivers. The 982 is hard find right now but more should be imported soon. If the Pardner Pump & 982 cost as much as the Express they would still offer more for money than the Express and that's not an opinion, it's a fact.


GC

 

[stormspotter]

A short time ago I bought the 18" 870 Express 6+1 round 20ga, 81100 as a HD gun. Daughter will be shooting it also so that is why I went with the 20ga.

I've put about 50 rounds birdshot thru it along with 20 rounds slug & buck, with no FTF or FTE. With buck or slugs it does do a job on milk jugs full of newspaper and water.

I just like 870's.

 

[jlv08]

I just looked at Gunbroker.com and they have a bunch of Express shotguns for sale.

In contrast to the street price of the 870 Express in my area, a Pardner Pump can be had way more reasonable and you get a gun that will work right out of the box.

I have two of them and they are well built guns. They are not cheaply machined "Chinese Junk".

I have been all through these guns, had them apart in pieces and could not find the machine marks, burrs, pot metal, chopsticks, rickshaw tracks, or anything that would make this a bad gun.

I did compare them with other guns at the store where I bought them and I was amazed that NEF could pull this off and offer a decent field grade shotgun that doesn't offer hit or miss quality when you take it out of the box when bought new.

I don't mean to slam the Remington 870, but rust and non functioning issues along with having to do what Reminton needs to do before the guns leave the factory is not my idea of fun or what a shotgun should be.

I used to work at a gun shop in my younger years in the mid 1970's and sold a slew of shotguns.

I never saw a Remington 870 come back for repair.

Nowadays that seems to be all too frequent.

There is always the Wingmaster, used or new and that is a good choice, but people shop their pocketbooks and the Express when introduced was a good option for those who did not want to pay for the fit and finish of the Wingmaster.

The Express' were good guns to begin with but time and progress (!?!) have affected the quality of these guns.

I would tell anyone to get a Wingmaster if they can find one for a good price as the Wingmaster is the best gun in fit and quality.

I would also tell folks if they want a decent Field grade gun, to get a Pardner pump over the Express that is being offered today.

I do this due to the fact that the Express is a hit or miss deal when you get one.

 

[stormspotter]

I knew I might be taking a chance when I got my Express, but I wanted one so I took it.

After I cleaned and lubed it I spent the evening pumping, cleaning and re-lubing it until the action smoothed up quite a bit. After an evening of doing this there are no contact lines from the forearm on the receiver.

I know 70 rounds are not a lot but so far no FTF or FTE, sooooo I may have gotten a decent one.

Good luck with what you decide on.

 

[Shpadoinkel]

Thanks for the info Walter.
I'm heavily leaning towards the Pardner Protector. Could you tell me how much MAX100's extensions cost?

 

[Big Daddy Grim]

870 hell of a weapon

 

[MAX100]

I paid $65 but Max should be able to answer for you unless maybe it's not kosher for this board.

That's the correct price shipped and it comes with a Wolff spring and Hi Vis nylon follower. Brownells or Vang followers work very well in my tube extensions. They allow the most space in the tube so you can get 7 in the tube with most brands of shells. The solid end nylon Hi Vis followers are good but take away 1/2" of space in the mag tube; Wilson & Choate are two examples.


GC

 

[bootless]

Finally found a Pardner Protector at a local gun store and they wanted $300 for it. Guess I'll keep looking

 

[RandKL]

Considering that this will probably be the last/only year the Pardner pump is made in its original form, that's not really a tough question. Do you want a gun that parts are going to be that hard to find?

Remington has already closed the NEF Gardner plant and if the Pardner pump line is even continued at all, it'll, chances are, be made to Express specs. The chances of it continuing at all are slim.

richard

 

[jlv08]

That was an interesting statement you made, RandKL.

Where did you find out that the Pardner Pump is going to be discontinued?

If the laws of supply and demand are in play here ,and the gun is as popular as it is, coupled with the fact that Remington is also part of the group that owns NEF, why would Remington, if they could, discontinue this particular shotgun?

At a local Dick's sporting goods they were advertised as the Remington Pardner pump.... odd wouldn't you say?

The Garner factory has been closed for a while and the Pardners are still listed in different configurations.

Hmmm....

I'm curious to know how you substantiate what was implied in your post?

I just visited the NEF sight and they just introduced a new rifled slug barrel Pardner Pump for 2009 and the Garner plant, by the way, was closed 4/7/08.

 

[RandKL]

The truth is nothing you said is right RandKL. You're entitled to your opinion but the facts are the facts and you have them wrong.

Opinion, yep. Quote me a few of those "facts" you have so many of, Walt.

What do you reckon the chances are of Remington continuing a discount line that's better than the flagship gun? Remington bought NEF to do away with that competition if you folks remember the press from about two years ago. They aren't buying property to expand their line. No one is. They screwed the Express line for the same reason. Cost vs profit. So what are the chances of them continuing their flagship guns plus cheap clones that use slightly different parts? Zero to nil?

The "only" year it was made in it's original form? They've been making them for years already.

You seem to have misunderstood that sentence a bit there, Walt. That sentence was in reply to a guy contemplating buying one TODAY, not someone who's owned one for three years. If you're contemplating buying your first Pardner pump *today*, it will, chances are, be the last/only year you'll be able to find it in the original configuration.

*If* it's continued another year, and the chances on that are slim, it'll either be changed to fit the Express line ie use Remington barrels and plastic mag cap retainers with dimpled mag tubes, plastic trigger groups, cast parts etc or it'll be dropped entirely and the names will be applied to Express line guns.

If it's continued in today's economy, keeping it going will mean the death of the Express line in its entirety and only the Police Magnum and Wingmaster will continue to carry the name. So what do you reckon the chances are of Remington continuing its flagship line plus cheap, foreign clones? Does anyone *honestly* want to answer that one?

rich

 

[jlv08]

RandKL,
You are predicating a lot of "ifs" and have not in any way substantiated your claim.

If Remington was going to discontinue their NEF line, why is NEF announcing a new slug gun?

It is amazing how convoluted folks get whenever the discussion gets turned away from the original posts inquiry and turned into a political debate.

I think folks have to accept this economy and the way products are being produced.

My intersts and goal here is to get as many people into the shooting sports as possible so as to dissuade the antis from infringing on our rights.

To parse and bicker doesn't help, especielly when new folks come in with a simple inquiry and their posts are turned into a political debate.

 

[MAX100]

So what are the chances of them continuing their flagship guns plus cheap clones that use slightly different parts? Zero to nil?

The parts are the same. The parts on the Pardner Pump and Hawk 982 are a drop in fit on the 870 shotguns. The PP trigger guard is a little different style.

*If* it's continued another year, and the chances on that are slim, it'll either be changed to fit the Express line ie use Remington barrels and plastic mag cap retainers with dimpled mag tubes, plastic trigger groups, cast parts etc or it'll be dropped entirely and the names will be applied to Express line guns.

The PP & 982 already have the plastic mag cap retainer and dimples like some of the Express but they don't have MIM parts. China can machine parts cheaper or as cheap as we can have MIM parts made in the USA so why would they use MIM parts on the PP. They should use machined Pardner Pump parts on the Express.

If Remington was going to drop the PP line they would have done so the first year they obtained H&R NEF. I don't look for Remington to drop the Pardner Pump line because it is a very successful and a big money maker. It has a very low return rate for repairs unlike the 870 shotguns. In the future I look for Remington to expend the Pardner Pump line even more and possibly have Hawk Ind in China make some of the parts for the 870 shotguns.

The Pardner Pump and Hawk 982 shotguns have become very popular because people are now finding out what deal they are. I have been saying what deal they are for years.

Remington knew fully what they were doing by getting involved with Hawk Industries in China. That is probably the main reasons they purchased H&R NEF to own the Hawk Ind import rights.

Here is some Info on Hawk Ind in China that produces the Pardner Pump shotguns for Remington and the Hawk 982 shotguns.

Qiqihar Hawk Industries Co., Ltd., located in the Industry City of Qiqihar in North of China, is specialized in designing and manufacturing of shotguns. It was established in 1954 and had been certified as an ISO9001:2000 enterprise in 2000. The brand was awarded as the most famous brand among China shotgun industries by the Ministry of China Industry.
With advanced produce and testing equipments and a group of research talents, the company has a mass production capacity. So far, we have developed hunting guns, sporting guns and protection guns with more than 20 models. Those models including single barrel, semi-auto, super magnum, pump action etc. Especially, our newly developed Over and Under shotguns, are highly honored among domestic and overseas customers. The products have been exported to more than 20 countries, including USA, European, Middle East and East Asian.
Be honesty and credible, keep exceeding ourselves ; is our principle. We d like to keep improving the quality of our shotguns and cooperating with our friends from different countries and areas and sincerely hope to make mutual benefits between us.

Business Type: Manufacturing
Main Markets: America
Middle East
Year Established: 1954
Number of Employees: 100+
Legal Representative / CEO: XU
Website: www.hawkindustries.com.cn
Certificate: SAMMI

Here is their website link. It shows all the shotguns they make.
Hunting shotguns
http://www.hawkindustries.com.cn/english/cpmore.asp?cpclasstype=Hunting
LE shotguns
http://www.hawkindustries.com.cn/english/cpmore.asp?cpclasstype=Law Enforcement

Here is a picture of the O/U shotguns they make. They look nice I am surprised they haven't made their way into the USA. Remington H&R will probably be importing them soon. There is no doubt about it, they make a quality product.

Looks like a copy of the Rem 11-87



Detachable Magazine Pump



Detachable Magazine Semi Auto


DM BullPup Semi Auto



The Chinese know how to make weapons

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[Howaido]

As my sig says, I got the last good 870, so thank goodness I don't have to consider buying a pardner pump as this 870 will outlast me.

 

[RandKL]

The parts are the same. The parts on the Pardner Pump and Hawk 982 are a drop in fit on the 870 shotguns. The PP trigger guard is a little different style.

Actually, no, they're not, Max. While 90% of the parts can be made to fit with a few handtools, the guns themselves are designed specifically *not* to be drop in interchangeable. The barrel recoil lug is different, the bolt looks similar but can't really be made to fit etc. There was an article a couple of years back that compared them part by part. If I recall correctly, you yourself might have posted it. If I recall correctly, that article also warned about a possible shortage of parts given the gun's lack of a guaranteed lifespan.

The part I raised about "cheap clones using slightly different parts" was in ref to a thing called "an implied warranty of merchantibility and fitness" that every Remington gun has to meet. Simply put, since the parts "can be made to fit", that it's reasonable to assume that an average user might try to fit a Chinese NEF barrel to his 870 Express or vice versa. The "average user", you and I included, see the fact that it's a clone so it should fit. While 99% of users can shoot that all day long and have no probs, the 1% that the barrel blows up would end the company. As long as the gun was made and/or marketed by another company, Remington had legal protection from anyone that might have been injured. But now, with Remington making and/or marketing both guns that are pretty much alike, if an average user sticks a Chinese barrel on his 870 Express and it blows up, Remington gets screwed.

The same thing impacted the Mossy 500/835 when the 835 was on the design table. The 835 was designed to use 3 1/2" magnum shells....but the 500 receiver wasn't designed to use those same shells. If Mossberg had used the same old classic Mossy barrel/mag tube attach and someone actually *put* an 835 barrel on his 500 receiver and it blew, Mossberg would have been liable. It's within reason to assume that the average user, seeing identical fittings on barrels from the same company, to assume that both barrels worked interchangeably. Mossy got by that by changing the barrel/mag tube attach to prevent the average user from doing it.

The same applied to the NEF Handiguns. While all the barrels "could be made to fit" any receiver, if an average user tried to fit it to theirs and it blew, New England Firearms would have been no more. They got by that by requiring that you send them the gun to be fitted with a barrel by their smiths.

If the gun is continued, the Pardner pump, it'll either be changed to use 870 parts and all parts be made identical....or the gun will be changed to NOT use 870 parts. "Can be made to fit" is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Enough with beating a dead horse. It's my two cents worth.

Be safe.

richard

 

[MAX100]

Actually, no, they're not, Max. While 90% of the parts can be made to fit with a few hand tools, the guns themselves are designed specifically *not* to be drop in interchangeable.

I know from first hand experience all of the 870 parts are a drop in fit on the Pardner Pump except the barrels. The only reason barrels don't fit is because the barrel lug rings are mounted in different locations on the barrels, otherwise they would fit. The receiver studs on a few PP shotguns have a metric pattern as well as the hole in the receiver it screws into and a 870 receiver stud won't fit on these shotguns.

Domonion Arms in Canada also imports the Hawk Ind 870 style shotguns they called the Grizzly. It has a 12.5" barrel and it's basically the same shotgun as the PP & 982 shotguns, The barrel ring on the 12.5" barrel Grizzle shotgun is in the same location as on the 870 barrel.

Here is a picture of a Norinco Hawk Ind barrel, bolt assembly, trigger group and mag spring riding in a REM 870 receiver. REM mag cap. The stock is made by Hawk Ind also as well as the forend. As you can see & read in the link below the parts are a drop in fit. He shows a test targets after firing the Franken-Rem as he calls it.

Here is the link to thread post I got the picture from:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278347

The same thing impacted the Mossy 500/835 when the 835 was on the design table. The 835 was designed to use 3 1/2" magnum shells....but the 500 receiver wasn't designed to use those same shells. If Mossberg had used the same old classic Mossy barrel/mag tube attach and someone actually *put* an 835 barrel on his 500 receiver and it blew, Mossberg would have been liable.

The 835 barrels are a drop in fit on the 18.5" barrel 590A1 shotguns as well as the 500 Tactical Breacher. They both have the same mag tube setup as the 835 shotgun.



GC

 

[jlv08]

I will reiterate my experience and not based on assumption, RandKL, the Pardner PUMP series is a well made field grade shotgun thet was manufactured to give the end user a decent gun made of excellent materials at a price most folks can afford easily.

I bought mine based on the merits of its construction and functionality and the two I've bought do just that.

There is so much assumption in your remarks and you STILL haven't given anyone here, who have direct experience with the Pardner Pump, a straight answer to underscore your claims.

I did not buy my Pardners to make an 870 out of it, I bought it on it's OWN merits and do not intend to pimp them into something they are not.

I love the Remingtons that were still being made, in times past, with the good quality Remington is/was known for.

But as of late, this hasn't been the case.

I did not by my Pardners to replicate the Remington Express, I bought them because they offered an alternative to the Express as a reliable field grade shotgun, not a "cheap Chinese clone" of the 870.

To conclude, the Pardner is a good gun in and of itself and built well enough, to me, to not worry about parts replacement fo a long time.

RanKL, there's MY 2 cents.

 

[thelastdon83]

PP mag extension!!!

Hey Max100 i was intersted in buying a mag extension for the Pardner Pump, I emailed you a while back didnt get a response from u yet. Email me back if you still make the extensions thank you.

email: the [email protected]

 

[Hunterdad]

Actually, no, they're not, Max. While 90% of the parts can be made to fit with a few handtools

I own 2 PP and never had to use one hand tool to fit an accessories onto them.

This one has a stock off an express. Stock went on easier than the original came off.


All the accessories on this gun were made for the 870. No problems with fitment.