8x57 Mauser Max CUP for reloading

[Beak50]

I've alway's heard about the Mauser being a very strong action and looking through most of what's on the net and a Nosler Reloading Book they keep the MAX CUP around 48,000 psi.Would I just be crazy to "Beef up the Powder"a few grs. if I want a little more speed or Just go to my Mod 70 7mm mag?I know the Big 200gr.accubond's aren't going to get near the mags speed.I'm curious because I've heard about Military Mauser's shooting 196gr ammo around 2,800fps.Has anyone heard about this or should I just go by the Book as usual?Any input would be really appriceated.

 

[Galil5.56]

Beak,

Was the data listed as C.U.P. or psi? Some manuals have produced data that has nearly the same max avg psi as say 30/06; Accurate Arms was one for instance for "JS" rifles. JS being rifles with groove diameters of/very close to .323". The AA data used 58,200 psi as their max pressure for their circa early 2000's data.

The 8x57 case and soundly made JS spec rifle are surely capable of very potent ammo using "good" data, fully the equal, and even more raw power than some 30/06.

 

[NCsmitty]

In a good 98-style Mauser, you should be able to achieve 55,000 PSI safely.
The site that I linked to has some potent loads listed for the 8MM Mauser, so of course you need to use at your own risk. Start low and work up safely.

http://www.realguns.com/loads/8x57mmjs.htm

A 196gr @ 2800fps would be pushing it a bit too much, IMO.



NCsmitty

 

[Beak50]

Thanks NCsmitty that was the page I was alway's looking for awsome loads and I've got BLC-2 and some other powders and Bullet sizes.I was under the impression that the Mauser was best with heavier Bullet's.I do have a box of i50gr Hornady sp.I'm gonna try too. THANK'S AGIAN Beak50

 

[rcmodel]

I've always heard about the Mauser being a very strong action

It is true that the 98 design is strong.
But not all 98 Mauser's are.

They have been made by so many factory's, over so many years, at so many different quality levels, it's hard to tell exactly how "strong" one might be.

And a ton of them have been brought back by vets and imported since then with mis-matched bolts.

rc

 

[Cosmoline]

As I understand it, the issue isn't the 98 Mauser at all. SAAMI and US makers of 8x57JS, along with some US reloading manuals, have a very low pressure set for 8x57 because there's a pre-98 rifle called a Commission Mauser out there which was at one time chambered for the 8x57J. Not JS, but J. That round originally had bullets of about .318" and was not as strong an action as the '98. So in theory you could buy 8x57JS and toss it in a Commission rifle. The bullet would hit the tight bore, pressure would skyrocket and you'd have a KB. Maybe.

But Commission Mausers are rare birds, and almost all of them on the market today are revamped and rehardened Turkish rifles chambered for JS. Even so mostly they're a cast bullet proposition. And not many who own them think they're a 98 rifle. They look more like a Mosin-Nagant.

 

[Jim Watson]

"Would I just be crazy to "Beef up the Powder"a few grs."

Yes.
Because how would you know how few grs you could beef it up?
Sure, a good rifle will take a heavier load than US commercial 8mm which is based on the Remington Special of the 1920s when running into an '88 was more likely; or even a heavier load than US manuals.
But how do you know if it is a good rifle and how do you know when you are at its limits?
Or do you have your own pressure test equipment?

 

[Steve C]

Find a manual with data for JS and use that data with their bullets. The 8mm JS is close to the 30-06 with similar bullet weights. Sierra's manual has the data you are looking for, as does Speer. Most of these have a warning to use no more than their start load in 88 Mauser rifles and top loads only for 98's in good condition.

If you want full power hunting loads you can buy Nosler or Norma ammo but its pricey. The Norma is probably the hottest.

 

[Clark]

The best I have got from 8mm is 1903 Turk Mauser 8mm 29.5" barrel, 220 gr. Sierra #2420 bullet, 3.22", measured 2675 fps

The best I have got from 7mmRemMag is Ruger #1 26" 180 gr VLD, measured 3025 fps.

I shot 3 deer with the later in 2010.

The magnum case head is good for a little more pressure than the Mauser case head, AND the magnum case has more capacity.

 

[evan price]

The Gew88 Mausers were made with 8x57J sized at .318" and weaker actions; putting a fully loaded 8x57JS .323" intended for the Mauser Gew98 through a Gew88 would cause rapid deconstruction of the action! For this reason most US manuals list conservative 8x57 data because it could be used in a Mauser 88. The Euro spec 8x57JS Mauser spec is the equal of 30-06 in nearly every way. 2700 fps with a 180 grain bullet is normal for 8x57JS.

SAAMI says 35K PSI for 8x57, CIP says 56K PSI.

If you know your ammo will only be used in a well-made, strong action in good shape, you could try to load for CIP which is what the 8x57 really deserves.

 

[Beak50]

Thank's everyone,My Mauser is a Mitchells M-48 BO premiunm grade I got when my Best friends Dad died and left it to me.I figure 30-06 performance is alot better then some of those anemic loads comparable to a 30-30 witch I already have.NCsmitty thanks for the reference to" realguns".

 

[denton]

When I had an instrumented 8x57, my favorite load was 53 grains of Varget behind a 175 grain Sierra bullet, with a CCI200 primer and 3.000" COL. This gave me 2750 FPS at a measured 53.8 KPSI, which I consider to be pretty conservative.

Your rifle will be different, of course.

 

[steveno]

I doubt that whatever your target is that it would ever know the difference between a safe load and one with a couple of extra grains of powder. believe the reloading manual and not guess. it would be a lot safer

 

[denton]

I'll probably brand myself as a heretic for this, but what the heck....

SAAMI standards provide useful limits. There is a huge amount of accumulated experience behind them that shows that if they are followed, very few dangerous problems will occur. However, SAAMI has to set limits that allow the cartridges to be fired in all the firearms in circulation.

So all the limits don't necessarily apply all the time.

As a case in point, properly made K98s are often rebarreled as 30-06s and 270s without excessive problems. The action cannot read the headstamp. The action itself will tolerate the same pressure in an 8x57 cartridge as it will in a 270 cartridge. Pressure only "knows" the strength and geometry of the surrounding brass and steel. It does not "know" the headstamp of the cartridge.

I know of no reason why a well-made Mauser 98 in good condition cannot be run at 58-60 KPSI.

 

[steveno]

so how do you know that the extra 2 grains or so of powder is going to give you the 58,000 to 60,000 psi unless you have the properly set up pressure testing equipment? I still stay to stick with what is in the manuals. I guess is one reason why I have never blown up a gun.

 

[denton]

so how do you know that the extra 2 grains or so of powder is going to give you the 58,000 to 60,000 psi unless you have the properly set up pressure testing equipment?

But I do.

Further, SAAMI MAP for the 8x57 is a measly 35 KPSI out of deference to some very weak wartime actions. Very roughly, an additional grain of rifle powder in that size case is 2.5-3.5 KPSI. Two grains of powder is not going to get you anywhere close to 58-60 KPSI.

 

[Ol` Joe]

Here is VVV data off Lapua`s reloading site. They load, according to the VV manuals I`ve got, to ~ 55K psi which is CIP standard. Compare the max velocities here to the max in your newer Hornady, Nosler, Speer manuals and I believe you`ll find they are very close and in some cases lower then the American manuals report.

8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser)

Test barrel: 620 mm (24½”), 1 in 9½” twist
Primers: Large Rifle
Cases: Lapua, trim-to length 56,80 mm (2.236”)
Bullet Powder Starting load Maximum load
Weight Type Mfg C.O.L Type Weight Velocity Weight Velocity
[g] [grs] [mm] [in.] [g] [grs] [m/s] [fps] [g] [grs] [m/s] [fps]
8,1 125 SP Hornady 74,0 2.913 N130 2,80 43.2 874 2867 3,12 48.1 950 3117
N133 3,14 48.5 883 2897 3,50 54.0 979 3212
N135 3,22 49.7 882 2894 3,57 55.1 974 3196
9,7 150 Spitzer Speer 76,0 2.992 N135 2,97 45.8 801 2628 3,31 51.1 880 2887
N140 3,13 48.3 799 2621 3,49 53.9 892 2927
11,0 170 SP Speer 77,0 3.031 N135 2,86 44.1 748 2454 3,18 49.1 829 2720
N140 2,99 46.1 747 2451 3,33 51.4 838 2749
N150 3,13 48.3 761 2497 3,48 53.7 853 2799
11,7 180 Naturalis Lapua 80,5 3.189 N135 2,56 39.5 717 2352 2,88 44.4 776 2546
N140 2,93 45.2 733 2405 3,21 49.5 780 2559
N540 2,98 46.0 716 2349 3,17 48.9 816 2677
N150 2,93 45.2 731 2398 3,22F 49.7F 802 2631
13,0 200 Spitzer Speer 79,5 3.130 N140 2,77 42.7 661 2169 3,08 47.5 759 2490
N150 2,86 44.1 680 2231 3,19 49.2 763 2503
13,0 200 Partition Nosler 81,0 3.189 N160 3,27 50.5 681 2234 3,64 56.2 785 2575

Sorry the chart doesn`t come out better...

 

[evan price]

@ steveno:

The US manuals are written with liability in mind and publish loads that will work in the lowest quality firearm that might be chambered in a particular caliber.

They know that there are lots of old Gehwer 88 Mausers out in circulation still and they are marked for 8x57J ammo; the 8x57JS standard wasn't invented yet.

Caution is always advised; but be aware that in some circumstances an experienced reloader may find it necessary to abandon published loads.

 

[steveno]

with some of the theory and thinking on the internet about reloading there is probably a good reason why companies are concerned with liability when printing a reloading manual.

 

[denton]

there is probably a good reason why companies are concerned with liability when printing a reloading manual.

I think you're right.

With millions of rounds prepared every year according to published recipes, the potential for an expensive accident is high.

Component companies know that people will buy their product partly based on whether it produces the most zippy performance, so they are motivated to provide the most optimistic data they can. The SAAMI standards provide a sort of legal firewall. If a reload publisher can show that they complied with the SAAMI standards in developing the load, they have a much better chance of prevailing in case of legal action.

Ol' Joe has properly reeled us back a little, pointing out that few published loads conform with the SAAMI 35 KPSI limit for the 8x57. So my statement about adding a couple of grains to a SAAMI conforming load doesn't apply very often. There is a lot of published data out there for the 8x57 that does not conform to SAAMI, and it seems to be working out pretty well.

I'm not a fan of ignoring the SAAMI limit, and, in fact tend to be pretty conservative in the pressures I load to. But there are a few instances where the limit doesn't make sense if you have a modern firearm in good operating condition. 8x57 is one of them. 7x57 and 6.5x55 are two more. In a modern firearm, at modern pressures, those last two are outstanding performers.

 

[steveno]

I had a Ruger # 1A in 7 x 57 and while I'm quite the rifle was capable of handling more pressure than the loads listed in manuals I never went more than manuals. The loads in the manuals were making sure that the loads were safe in all rifles the 7 x 57 was chambered in.

 

[denton]

That's a conservative approach, and I find absolutely no fault in it.