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9mm Garden gun?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Clipper, Dec 20, 2012.

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  1. Clipper

    Clipper Member

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    I go pick up an unusual piece tomorrow. I have not personally handled it, just seen a few (badly out of focus) pics. It appears to be a 9mm (rimfire maybe?) smoothbore. It has a european type stock with the wide grip panels and a schnabbel forend. Full-length hex barrel, and the hammer face is like a half-sphere in shape with a flat face. The extractor appears to slide rearward like a drawer. The breech block is missing, but is fairly shallow, appearing to be only 1/2" or so from barrel to hammer. There's a fairly ornate trigger guard, but it doesn't seem to have any mechanical duties like a falling block gun's would. I'll post pics in a day or two, but wanted to get started in my search for it's manufacturer and perhaps the parts to get it working.

    Thanks
     
  2. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    They usually fired some form of a 9mm shotshell for garden pests because they had no recoil and were quiet. They have been made by a wide variety of makers, so a name would help, as would any proof marks
     
  3. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Sounds like a Flobert type action of unknown manufacture.

    Could be rimfire or centerfire.

    You can still get rimfire 9mm shotshells.
    Not so much centerfire ones.

    In all, I would not get too excited over a broken Flobert garden gun.
    Finding parts will prove to be impossible.
    And they ain't worth enough to make parts for them.

    This one is all there, works, and they couldn't get $200 for it.
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=317933888

    rc
     
  4. jhco

    jhco Member

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    Ive got a double barrel garden gun, really neat little gun one barrel is the 9mm rimfire and the other is a small caliber non shotshell round (not sure what caliber) Its very nicely done with a little engraving on the stock and metal. They are cool guns and usually found at a reasonable price. If you are looking for 9mm shot shells fiocchi makes some.
     
  5. Clipper

    Clipper Member

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    Upon really close (and really iffy) inspection of the photos, I think I can see the break line for a little falling breech block that appears to still be there. I have no real desire for a 9mm smoothbore, but if I can't do anything else with it I thought I could have it reamed for .357 mag, convert to centerfire and load some low power shot loads (It would be a lot simpler and cheaper to load than buying Flobert rimfire).

    I also have an idea to cut the barrel down just ahead of the receiver and do a little machining to fit a Ruger 10-22 bull barrel to it and ream to .22 hornet. I can make the barrel removable and get one of those .311 blanks from Sportsman's guide and make up a .32 S&W. I only paid $20.00 for the gun, and have all the equipment and machining skills to do any of this pretty easily. The only part that gives me pause is the stock...I can glue the factory stock back together enough to use as a pattern for a piece of the really nice slab of walnut I've been hoarding, but I REALLY hate working with wood. Maybe my cousin, who has made several really beautiful stocks, could be talked into it...
     
  6. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Don't even think about it!!
    If it is indeed a Fobert, it isn't nearly strong enough for any of that.

    Converting it to center-fire in a very low power caliber might be possible.

    But again, is probably more trouble then it is worth.

    rc
     
  7. Clipper

    Clipper Member

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    You're not listening, RC. I said bore the chamber to .357, so that I could make LOW POWERED, reloadable shotshells from .357 cases. I have no desire to blow myself up...

    I have disassembled the gun, so I can clean the crud off and photo the proof marks. My cousin seems to think it's scottish. The breech block (which is missing) is hinged to two pins forward, and must have a pair of fingers that set between the lugs of the sliding extractor, moving it rearward when the block is tipped up. There would be a small step that is locked down by the hammer when it is fired. When it's clean, I will measure the bore, but it seems to be marked with an 8.7mm on the underside of the barrel, but 9mmFc on the receiver where the proof marks are. Since I will have to make a breech block if I want to fire it, I'm not worried about collector value (if any) if I rechamber it. It isn't going to be suitable for any other chambering except maybe sleeving it for .22LR.

    Oh, the only visible manufacturers mark might be a G.C (M?) on the barrel. The gun sure looks to be handmade.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
  8. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    OH!
    Totally my fault.
    I won't bother you anymore.

    But, Just So You Know?
    If you could possibly post some decent picures of it so we would know what it is we are guessing about?

    Somebody smarter then me could possibly tell you what you have, and what you can safely convert it to.

    So far, my crystal ball has been a little fogged up from the inside out in this whole thread.

    rc
     
  9. bigdogpete

    bigdogpete Member

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    Sounds like the flobbert I have. Mine is 8mm rimfire, however. Haven't found any ammo for it however.

    I also have a 9mm shotgun bolt action by winchester. The original paper shotshells are very hard to find. Midway sells some imported ammo for the 9mm.
     
  10. Clipper

    Clipper Member

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    Just measured the bore. Muzzle is .315, and chamber is .345... So I guess .32 S&W long for the shotshell cases. I'll get pics up when I get some new batteries in the camera.
     
  11. bigdogpete

    bigdogpete Member

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    That is what I was told will shoot in mine. Let me know if you find ammo.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
  12. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    You could look at empty cases from 32-20, .327 mag. and maybe even 7.62x38 nagant pistol if you want a longer case than the .32 long.
    The .32 sw long has base diameter of .337 and you could wrap it with tape or paper to make up the difference. The 32-20 has a base diameter of 354 in (9.0 mm) which is too big. The nagant is supposed to be 0.352 in. But I know a 32-20 will not fit the chamber of my nagant and the .32 sw long is a little too small.

    I think a garden gun would be a lot fun if one had ammo and a functional gun.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
  13. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    My cousin seems to think it's scottish.

    Unlikely. Most of these things are Belgian, some French and German.

    The breech block (which is missing) is hinged to two pins forward, and must have a pair of fingers that set between the lugs of the sliding extractor, moving it rearward when the block is tipped up. There would be a small step that is locked down by the hammer when it is fired.

    Just speculating while we wait on pictures...
    You may be describing a "Remington Pattern Flobert" which superfically resembles a Remington Rolling Block but is dinky and flimsy. There is a guy on TFL with one of these, breechblock broken out like yours, who just finds it difficult to understand why he cannot get a century old $2.65 plinker fixed.

    If you have the tools and skills to make a new breechblock out of better material, give it a try and keep us informed.

    You may have a Warnant System Flobert, sometimes referred to as the Trapdoor because of a vague resemblance to a Trapdoor Springfield.

    See the thread at
    http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508721
    being sure to go to the Gunderson links where...
    I found a couple of "Remington action" Floberts for sale on the www.
    Unfortunately they do not show the actions open but if you look close you can see the small breechblock and the way the hammer backs it up... sort of.
    http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/rifleflobert175a.html
    http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/ri...rtcracked.html
     
  14. Clipper

    Clipper Member

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    Jim, your second link looks like it...
     

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  15. Clipper

    Clipper Member

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    More pics...
     

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  16. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    It is certainly Belgian, those proof marks have been in use there for a long, long time.

    I think it is a Warnant but cannot be sure with it taken to bits like that.
     
  17. Clipper

    Clipper Member

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    So Jim, tell me... If i made a new breechblock from, say, PHT 4140, do you think it would stand the gaff? I have some 304 stainless, too.
     
  18. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    Please post a picture for RC and the rest of us when the breech block acts like the ejecta on a recoiless rifle. Not a safe project for a centerfire in any way IMHO.
     
  19. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Member

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    You might want to look for parts on Ebay or Gunbroker. I have seen several parts for these lately on both sites. Including breech block .

    You might have to scan through the vintage parts on Ebay because they often don't know what to call the parts from the Flobert style guns.
     
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