9mm is cheaper & performs well, 45 is more proven, why all the agencies going 40S&W??
- Thread starter JLStorm
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Warren
Member
So with deviation you could get over 1600? Cause that is a nice big round number.
If it is that close to the Sig why did they not just use .38 Super? The shorter case was important I guess.
If it is that close to the Sig why did they not just use .38 Super? The shorter case was important I guess.
briang2ad
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Chieftain...
I realize that your numbers were not arbitrary. However, life changed for thr 40 as soon as it hit the street. Any amount of searching on the web, and you can find that most 40 shooters use a 40 SD load like this:
DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70" 511 ft pds
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70" 473
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66" 413 ft lbs
DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72" 567 ft lbs
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76" 560 ft lbs
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70" 528
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68" 484 ft lbs
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59" 490
But this is virtually duplicated by other manufacturers, only MOST load the 9mm a little softer - DT loads the 9 pretty hot. This table is actually favorable to the 9mm in a way. Most SD forty loads are in the high 400 to low 500 FP range. MOST 9mm loads available don't go there. And... you get more retained weight in the slug. With numbers, the 9mm ain't equal. And, I don't believe the 'gunfight numers' show them equal either. Again, it MAY be close enought that it doesn't matter, but THAT fact doesn't make the 40 nonsensical for PDs to adopt. This based on at least some objective reasoning.
Of course true Religion is also supported by objective reasoning (see Romans 1).
I realize that your numbers were not arbitrary. However, life changed for thr 40 as soon as it hit the street. Any amount of searching on the web, and you can find that most 40 shooters use a 40 SD load like this:
DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70" 511 ft pds
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70" 473
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66" 413 ft lbs
DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72" 567 ft lbs
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76" 560 ft lbs
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70" 528
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68" 484 ft lbs
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59" 490
But this is virtually duplicated by other manufacturers, only MOST load the 9mm a little softer - DT loads the 9 pretty hot. This table is actually favorable to the 9mm in a way. Most SD forty loads are in the high 400 to low 500 FP range. MOST 9mm loads available don't go there. And... you get more retained weight in the slug. With numbers, the 9mm ain't equal. And, I don't believe the 'gunfight numers' show them equal either. Again, it MAY be close enought that it doesn't matter, but THAT fact doesn't make the 40 nonsensical for PDs to adopt. This based on at least some objective reasoning.
Of course true Religion is also supported by objective reasoning (see Romans 1).
Harley Quinn
Member
That has to have some serious pressure
Anyone want to look at the 38 Super Hmmm Wonder why Glock never made one to fit that round.I am wondering if there is any after market barrels out there for it.
People complain about the pressure of the 357 Sig
KenpoProfessor
Member
All I know is I've got two glocks, an M21SF and an M23. With these two Glocks, all I have to do is swap barrels and I'm shooting .45,10mm, 400 Corbon and .40 Super out of the 21, and .40, .357 Sig, and 9mm out of the 23. I have the advantage of shooting most any caliber, and with the Mech Tech Conversion Units, I can shoot 10mm, .45, .40, .357 Sig, and 9mm out of the same two guns.
For the life of me I can't figure out why this isn't done more often. I talk to people all the time that don't know they can swap barrels on their Glocks and caliber juggle with both pistol and rifle configs.
Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day
Clyde
For the life of me I can't figure out why this isn't done more often. I talk to people all the time that don't know they can swap barrels on their Glocks and caliber juggle with both pistol and rifle configs.
Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day
Clyde
Elm Creek Smith
Member
The Texas Rangers are issued SIG P226 semiautomatics chambered in .357 SIG or (and less popular!) SIG P220's in .45 ACP. The 125 grain .357 SIG matches the ballistics of the 125 grain .357 Magnum and the stopping power thereof.
Not all LEO agencies go with the three choices the OP put forward.
ECS
Not all LEO agencies go with the three choices the OP put forward.
ECS
Harley Quinn
Member
Here is some good information on the differences, between the 9mm and 38 Super.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm
Then along came the 357 Sig better to reload (case config) etc.
http://www.gunweek.com/2002/feature0210.html
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm
Then along came the 357 Sig better to reload (case config) etc.
http://www.gunweek.com/2002/feature0210.html
doc2rn
Member
Our PD here in Topeka went to the 40 but switched back in less than a month to the 9mm; due to ammo issues something about failure feed problems.
I think the numbers cited up there do show a legitimate advantage for the .40S&W round - but they also demand that you believe three-quarters of an inch and 40 feet lbs of energy will make a meaningful difference in a gunfight. I am not sure that I do.
Harley Quinn
Member
My honest opinion is that 9 mm is about the best all around for LEO.
They all are not good shooters and the 9 mm is easier to handle and they carry more bullets. It is a situation of serving more of the crew, rather than the few.
The way to overcome the lack of confidence is to be a better shot and to practice with it more. Take a good self defense course, and become a better person, all around in defense.
The look of many LEO is really not a good thing. Overweight and out of shape is common in many of the departments.
They have many items to use before they have to resort to the firefight. But when it comes up, they need to be very good at hitting the target IMHO.
They all are not good shooters and the 9 mm is easier to handle and they carry more bullets. It is a situation of serving more of the crew, rather than the few.
The way to overcome the lack of confidence is to be a better shot and to practice with it more. Take a good self defense course, and become a better person, all around in defense.
The look of many LEO is really not a good thing. Overweight and out of shape is common in many of the departments.
They have many items to use before they have to resort to the firefight. But when it comes up, they need to be very good at hitting the target IMHO.
Penetration
The basis for the switch is the FBI ordering up a 180 grain bullet at 980 fps, that penetrates 17.9", and, even though it was a 10mm load, that's what they went with.
The 40 is capable of producing that load, at reasonable pressure. Double Tap ammo is a good place to start, since only their XTP loads penetrate the desired 18" after Platt and company.
By slowing the bullet down, they reduced expansion from around .96" to .6-.7 inches. However, everyone can shoot it, and, it fits in lots of guns.
It's not a bad compromise. 9mm, except for the 147 grain bullets can't penetrate that well, or, is inconsistent in expansion. Also, velocity isn't very good with that heavy a bullet.
.40 with Longshot or Universal powder, can move the 180 grain bullet at the target speed with a minimum pressure of 25k. This means very mild recoil, if loaded with a those good powders. Also, the bigger bullets mean more consistent expansion, and, greater bone breaking ability. It was a wise choice by Urey Patrick . In the 10mm it was even better, because the larger case meant pressure could be about the same as the 45 ACP.
The FBI argument was that the 45ACP was proven, and therefore not exciting. They also had specs for a gun that no one had built at the time, and, they ordered something like 10k guns from S&W. It often looks like politics influence the choices as much as ballistics. The 45 ACP had just been canned by the military, I think this was 89, and that was an unpopular choice with Congress.
good powder.
The 10MM notes,
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
Give a wonderful look at the history, and examination of the three calibers, and, how the choice was made. The FBI has been a leader for LEO, and, through LEO, for CCW, thanks to our legal system.
Please read page 5
In short, the FBI did a really good job of creating the 10MM platform in a way that would allow all the Political concerns to be addressed. It's a great read.
They gun, the M1076, cost them about 246 dollars each, and they ordered 9500 of them. At 35 oz, loaded, with the FBI load, the guns recoil at Recoil Energy of 5 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 12 fps.
The 147 grain load for the 9mm would recoil at
Recoil Energy of 3 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 10 fps.. And, the 45 ACP 185 grain load would be Recoil Energy of 4 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 11 fps..
9 was out, lack of bullet weight, penetration, and it was too old.
45 was out due to politics, and, that the bullet performance wasn't as consistent as the 40, or 10mm, excuse me.
When I look at the whole thing, considering the climate at the time, they did an excellent job of coming up with a gun everyone could shoot, increasing penetration, and, at very little difference in recoil, 1 ft lb.
Moving from the 10mm, after looking at the stats on recoil, I can only conclude that either a lot of folks in the FBI can tell a pea under their mattresses, that is, to complain about the increase in recoil is pretty absurd, or, the ammunition makers used a cheap, high recoiling powder, trying to make money on the contract, that actually DID make the 10mm run at higher pressure, and more recoil, then was necessary to reach the ballistic goal of the FBI.
S esq.
The basis for the switch is the FBI ordering up a 180 grain bullet at 980 fps, that penetrates 17.9", and, even though it was a 10mm load, that's what they went with.
The 40 is capable of producing that load, at reasonable pressure. Double Tap ammo is a good place to start, since only their XTP loads penetrate the desired 18" after Platt and company.
By slowing the bullet down, they reduced expansion from around .96" to .6-.7 inches. However, everyone can shoot it, and, it fits in lots of guns.
It's not a bad compromise. 9mm, except for the 147 grain bullets can't penetrate that well, or, is inconsistent in expansion. Also, velocity isn't very good with that heavy a bullet.
.40 with Longshot or Universal powder, can move the 180 grain bullet at the target speed with a minimum pressure of 25k. This means very mild recoil, if loaded with a those good powders. Also, the bigger bullets mean more consistent expansion, and, greater bone breaking ability. It was a wise choice by Urey Patrick . In the 10mm it was even better, because the larger case meant pressure could be about the same as the 45 ACP.
The FBI argument was that the 45ACP was proven, and therefore not exciting.
They also had specs for a gun that no one had built at the time, and, they ordered something like 10k guns from S&W. It often looks like politics influence the choices as much as ballistics. The 45 ACP had just been canned by the military, I think this was 89, and that was an unpopular choice with Congress. good powder.
The 10MM notes,
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
Give a wonderful look at the history, and examination of the three calibers, and, how the choice was made. The FBI has been a leader for LEO, and, through LEO, for CCW, thanks to our legal system.
Please read page 5
, and, you'll have an answer to this question. It's in PDF, and, with Acrobat Reader I can't copy and paste it. The 45 worked as well, or better then the 10mm, really 40 S&W load they tested, but, on page 6 they go into why they picked the 10MM, with a load that was a minimum pressure load for a 40 S&W, much less for the 10MM.
In short, the FBI did a really good job of creating the 10MM platform in a way that would allow all the Political concerns to be addressed. It's a great read.
They gun, the M1076, cost them about 246 dollars each, and they ordered 9500 of them. At 35 oz, loaded, with the FBI load, the guns recoil at Recoil Energy of 5 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 12 fps.
The 147 grain load for the 9mm would recoil at
Recoil Energy of 3 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 10 fps.. And, the 45 ACP 185 grain load would be Recoil Energy of 4 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 11 fps..
9 was out, lack of bullet weight, penetration, and it was too old.
45 was out due to politics, and, that the bullet performance wasn't as consistent as the 40, or 10mm, excuse me.
When I look at the whole thing, considering the climate at the time, they did an excellent job of coming up with a gun everyone could shoot, increasing penetration, and, at very little difference in recoil, 1 ft lb.
Moving from the 10mm, after looking at the stats on recoil, I can only conclude that either a lot of folks in the FBI can tell a pea under their mattresses, that is, to complain about the increase in recoil is pretty absurd, or, the ammunition makers used a cheap, high recoiling powder, trying to make money on the contract, that actually DID make the 10mm run at higher pressure, and more recoil, then was necessary to reach the ballistic goal of the FBI.
S esq.
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