Ok guys, im new to loading for auto guns of any sort. My test gun is a Gen 4 G19. I have 500 115 grain Montana Gold FMJ's to start testing with. My first 4 test batches were horrible. One main thing i am seeing is alot of different OAL's called out in all of my manuals. This got me thinking, i went and measured 3 different boxes of factory 115gr FMJ ammo and none of them had an OAL of what any of these loads call for in the manuals. Why is this? Im going to assume my best option is to start with some light loads and test the different OAL and see what feeds and what does not. My powder choices that i have on hand is Universal, Blue Dot, Power Pistol and Bulls Eye, its no biggie if i need to get something that i do not have. Any suggestions is appreciated!
9mm Issues, constant FTF/FTE
- Thread starter Philippe
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Curt Blunt
Member
I have a Charles Daly Hi-Power, not a Glock, so this may not be helpful...but, FTE might be too light a powder charge? I am currently using Accurate #5 and Remington 124 HP's. I also resize in an RCBS steel die since it's a tapered case and I've had the dies since before carbide inserts.
A trick I learned from somewhere is to put a factory round in the shellholder, run it up and then screw the seating die down onto it to arrive at the proper "crimp" and then the seating stem to arrive at the bullet seating depth.
Just a thouht,
Mark
A trick I learned from somewhere is to put a factory round in the shellholder, run it up and then screw the seating die down onto it to arrive at the proper "crimp" and then the seating stem to arrive at the bullet seating depth.
Just a thouht,
Mark
LiveLife
Member
First off, welcome to THR and the wonderful world of reloading hobby/passion.
My experience with lighter 9mm 115 gr FMJ bullets is that they need to be pushed high to near max load data to reliably cycle the slide in Glocks with stiff captured springs, more so with compacts (G19) and subcompacts (G26). Gen4 Glocks have even stiffer rate captured dual spring recoil spring set that will attribute to FTF/FTE issues. Using heavier 124/125 gr bullet will help with this issue and allow the use of mid to high range load data.
As to powder, I have used Bullseye, Promo, Green Dot, Titegroup, N320, W231/HP-38, Universal, Unique, WSF, HS-6 for 9mm 115 gr FMJ with reliable cycling in my Gen3 Glocks. Your powders (Bullseye, PowerPistol, Universal, Blue Dot) will work but I would recommend faster burning Bullseye powder for you to start with then later work with more slower burning Universal/PowerPistol for heavier/higher velocity loads. Blue Dot is even slower burning powder that some match shooters use to generate even greater velocities to meet 9mm major power factor and I would not recommend its use for new reloader. Here's a powder burn rate chart to compare powder burn rates - http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html
As to OAL, loose chambers of Glock barrels will accommodate longer OAL out to SAAMI max length, but I typically load my 9mm rounds to 1.125"-1.135" OAL and it will feed/chamber well from the magazine reliably. OALs used in published load data is what they used for the test barrel fixture and individual reloaders need to adjust the OAL that will feed/chamber reliably for the particular bullet nose shape they are using in their pistols.
I usually recommend new reloaders use W231/HP-38 for 9mm and heavier 124/125 gr bullet but also use Bullseye (it produces snappier recoil and burns less clean but very accurate). I used 4.6-4.8 gr of Bullseye with 1.135" OAL (2004 Alliant load data lists 5.0 gr as max at 1.120" OAL for FMJ but 2011 load data lists 4.7 gr as max for 1.125" OAL for GoldDot JHP) but I recommend that you do a work up from 4.0 gr in 0.1-.02 gr increments until you have reliable slide cycling (BTW, I use 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 at 1.135" OAL for the same weight bullet and 2010 Hodgdon load data lists 5.1 gr as max as 1.125" OAL).
My experience with lighter 9mm 115 gr FMJ bullets is that they need to be pushed high to near max load data to reliably cycle the slide in Glocks with stiff captured springs, more so with compacts (G19) and subcompacts (G26). Gen4 Glocks have even stiffer rate captured dual spring recoil spring set that will attribute to FTF/FTE issues. Using heavier 124/125 gr bullet will help with this issue and allow the use of mid to high range load data.
As to powder, I have used Bullseye, Promo, Green Dot, Titegroup, N320, W231/HP-38, Universal, Unique, WSF, HS-6 for 9mm 115 gr FMJ with reliable cycling in my Gen3 Glocks. Your powders (Bullseye, PowerPistol, Universal, Blue Dot) will work but I would recommend faster burning Bullseye powder for you to start with then later work with more slower burning Universal/PowerPistol for heavier/higher velocity loads. Blue Dot is even slower burning powder that some match shooters use to generate even greater velocities to meet 9mm major power factor and I would not recommend its use for new reloader. Here's a powder burn rate chart to compare powder burn rates - http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html
As to OAL, loose chambers of Glock barrels will accommodate longer OAL out to SAAMI max length, but I typically load my 9mm rounds to 1.125"-1.135" OAL and it will feed/chamber well from the magazine reliably. OALs used in published load data is what they used for the test barrel fixture and individual reloaders need to adjust the OAL that will feed/chamber reliably for the particular bullet nose shape they are using in their pistols.
I usually recommend new reloaders use W231/HP-38 for 9mm and heavier 124/125 gr bullet but also use Bullseye (it produces snappier recoil and burns less clean but very accurate). I used 4.6-4.8 gr of Bullseye with 1.135" OAL (2004 Alliant load data lists 5.0 gr as max at 1.120" OAL for FMJ but 2011 load data lists 4.7 gr as max for 1.125" OAL for GoldDot JHP) but I recommend that you do a work up from 4.0 gr in 0.1-.02 gr increments until you have reliable slide cycling (BTW, I use 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 at 1.135" OAL for the same weight bullet and 2010 Hodgdon load data lists 5.1 gr as max as 1.125" OAL).
Overkilll0084
Member
How light are these test loads? If your starting too light, I can see having some issues. I would load up a box that runs most of the pressure spectrum (i.e. mild to hot) and see if things improve as powder charges increase.
As to the OAL of factory ammo, ammo manufacturers don't read reloading manuals. They do their own thing. Check some of the cheaper stuff and note how much variation there is from round to round.
Does your Glock have any non-factory parts? In particular, a heavy recoil spring? I'm not a Glock guy, but they aren't terribly fussy as far as I know.
FWIW, I run 4.0 of Bullseye w/ 115 gr Rainier plated with no issues in a CZ 75. I don't have my OAL info available right now.
As to the OAL of factory ammo, ammo manufacturers don't read reloading manuals. They do their own thing. Check some of the cheaper stuff and note how much variation there is from round to round.
Does your Glock have any non-factory parts? In particular, a heavy recoil spring? I'm not a Glock guy, but they aren't terribly fussy as far as I know.
FWIW, I run 4.0 of Bullseye w/ 115 gr Rainier plated with no issues in a CZ 75. I don't have my OAL info available right now.
LiveLife
Member
Since Glock chamber is generous, I did not even cover the taper crimp.
To make sure, take the barrel out of the pistol and drop a finished round in the chamber. It should drop in freely with a "clink". If it does not, then there isn't enough taper crimp and it is hanging in the chamber during feeding. The taper crimp should be no more than .375" and your case neck should look flat.
Of course, not enough taper crimp is not causing the failure to extract/eject issue and that's due to not enough powder charge to push the slide all the way back. For the stiff Gen4 recoil spring, you'll need near max load powder charge but still do the work up and use the powder charge that reliably cycles the slide.
To make sure, take the barrel out of the pistol and drop a finished round in the chamber. It should drop in freely with a "clink". If it does not, then there isn't enough taper crimp and it is hanging in the chamber during feeding. The taper crimp should be no more than .375" and your case neck should look flat.
Of course, not enough taper crimp is not causing the failure to extract/eject issue and that's due to not enough powder charge to push the slide all the way back. For the stiff Gen4 recoil spring, you'll need near max load powder charge but still do the work up and use the powder charge that reliably cycles the slide.
LiveLife
Member
You should be able to manually cycle the slide with the finished rounds in the magazine (point muzzle in safe direction and do not hook the trigger while you are cycling the slide - I have seen someone do this during gun clenaning).
If they don't feed/chamber reliably, check the finished round's dimensions.
If they feed/chamber reliably, check the powder charge.
If they don't feed/chamber reliably, check the finished round's dimensions.
If they feed/chamber reliably, check the powder charge.
Notoast
Member
I've been loading 4.5 gr of Bullseye under a 115 FMJ with OAL = 1.125". Feels like factory power and cycles my G26 just fine. In a new gun, the recoil spring will be stiffer until you've fired a few hundred rounds. Some folks say you can break in the recoil spring with a box of +P, but I've not done that.
weeniewawa
Member
I have a GLOCK 17 and use a Lee FCD and it will feed and fire any of my loads, plated ball or JHP
do not know the COAL right at this moment but I went off of one of the manuals, never had any problems
do not know the COAL right at this moment but I went off of one of the manuals, never had any problems
LiveLife
Member
Sorry, should have clarified to add, "in reference to tighter match grade barrels".918v said:
Yes, Gen3 and newer Glock barrels are NOW comparable to other "factory" barrels in chamber size and case base support.
rfwobbly
Member
Philippe -
Welcome !
• On a scale of powder speeds, I find the 9x19 prefers something in the speed range generally between #22 and #36 on THIS BURN RATE CHART. That being said, it looks like Power Pistol and Universal will be your best bets. That is not to say the other 2 cannot be used; they are simply not optimal for first trials.
• Your Glock is going to eat anything you feed it within reason. Just pick an OAL of a known good factory round and use that, as long as your published recipe calls for a shorter OAL. (For instance, Winchester white box 115 uses an OAL of 1.160".)
• While you SHOULD begin with the "starting load" there is no guarantee that's enough. Just work your way up slowly, generally in 0.2gr steps. You'll find a sweet spot. That's why we only load 10 rounds at each step. Fewer to take a part when they don't work!
Enjoy!
I've read of numerous problems with the Gen4 G19's due to the dual recoil springs being too strong. Light or medium loads won't cycle because of the stronger than Gen 3 or earlier springs. Some have contacted Glock and others have changed the recoil springs. I have no problems with light to medium loads in my Gen2 and 3 G19's.
Do a search for " G19 Gen4 recoil springs" and you'll find a lot of info.
Do a search for " G19 Gen4 recoil springs" and you'll find a lot of info.
Jim Watson
Member
If those manuals were not written for and those factory loads were not loaded with Montana Gold bullets, the OAL numbers mean very little. An Internet Recipe Hunt may or may not (has not yet) turned up anything specific. You will have to determine a suitable OAL by trial and maybe not too much error. You might be more comfortable with dummy rounds.
Seat a bullet to something that looks good to you, a little on the long side, and iron out the case mouth flare with taper crimp or sizing die; take the barrel out of the gun and clean it.
Drop a factory round into the chamber. It will drop in freely and go "Plunk!" as its case mouth comes up against the chamber mouth for headspace control. Note where the casehead is in relation to the barrel extension. Probably flush or a little below.
Drop in your trial round or dummy. Does it go all the way in FREELY and Plunk! with its casehead in the right location against the barrel extension?
If not, seat the bullet a little deeper, maybe .010" and try again. Etc.
Your reloads must chamber freely and fully like factory.
They also must fit the magazine. Maybe they will then run up the ramp into the chamber.
Load a small supply and shoot. Powder charge should not be the maximum but there is little point in going down the 10% to a starting load, there is not much chance that it will function a stiff Gen 4 Glock. Increase as required up to the maximum.
I would work with Power Pistol; Alliant advertised that it was the retail version of Bullseye 84 as used in a billion rounds of factory loads. It meters and shoots well, with a loud bang and bright flash to let everybody know you are shooting a Real Gun.
If an OAL that chambers freely and a top powder charge don't work, we will have to think of Something Else.
In general I agree with Jim Watson regarding finding you OAL. I simply used a factory round or previously loaded round to set my seating die and tested to see if they chambered properly in the barrel for 20+ years before breaking down and buying an inexpensive dial caliper. Wasted a lot of time measuring stuff that didn't matter with it.
In my experience a 10% reduced load from maximum has always operated my semi auto's without any problems. For example the Alliant data (and Speers) lists 6.7 grs of Power Pistol with a 115gr bullet as maximum. A 10% reduction would be 6.0 to 6.1 grs and with that load I chrono'd a 115gr Remington at 1,211 fps from my Glock 19 which was quite sufficient to operate the slide as that's about typical factory velocity. Different primers and different bullets may have produced different results which is the reason for using a start load.
With experience you will get a feel for what data source offers watered down loads and which offer loads that will deliver better performance. Its a good idea to compare various sources of data and pick a reasonable start load based on the range found.
Of the powders you listed the best choices will be Universal and Power Pistol. Blue Dot will work but is a bit slow for the small capacity 9mm.
In my experience a 10% reduced load from maximum has always operated my semi auto's without any problems. For example the Alliant data (and Speers) lists 6.7 grs of Power Pistol with a 115gr bullet as maximum. A 10% reduction would be 6.0 to 6.1 grs and with that load I chrono'd a 115gr Remington at 1,211 fps from my Glock 19 which was quite sufficient to operate the slide as that's about typical factory velocity. Different primers and different bullets may have produced different results which is the reason for using a start load.
With experience you will get a feel for what data source offers watered down loads and which offer loads that will deliver better performance. Its a good idea to compare various sources of data and pick a reasonable start load based on the range found.
Of the powders you listed the best choices will be Universal and Power Pistol. Blue Dot will work but is a bit slow for the small capacity 9mm.
gamestalker
member
Yep, if you are starting too lite the firearm isn't going to cycle properely. Assume it manages to eject a fire round and the on the forward it may not have come back intirely far enough to strip the next one from the magazine.
I have a first run G17 that simply won't cycle reliably with much under max. powered loads. I'm not familar with the G19 so I can't relate to any particulars.
OAL is barrel specific to be accomplsihed correctly. Each chamber is diffeent, thus the minimum OAL's published in laod data. These are only the minimums and can, or should be, increased to what will feed reliably in your firearm using the barrel while removed from your pistol to knwo when you are long enough and not too long and touching the lands. Be mindful of crimps on AL cartridges as well, they head space at the mouth and if too much crimp is applied it can significantly effect function.
I don't remember if you said you were experiencing ay FTF (mis-fires) but if so it can be the result of primers not being seated deep enough in the pocket. they shoudl be about .001" below the head or until they "talk to you" the feel of it completely seating. Another possible cause of FTF can be too much crimp causing the case to chamber too deep, to the extent that the FP can't sufficiently strike the primer.
A little something about 9mm and as well applies to other cartridges in a general regard. Speer did performed a controlled test with bullets and powdeer charges producing 28,000 psi or cup as it was measured back then. They deliberatly seated the bullets in those 28,000 psi producing rounds .030" deeper than SAMMI recomended and pressures jumped to 62,000. The point here is going longer with t your OAL isn't an issue so long as your not up into the lands. But shorter than minimum OAL drives pressures up pretty quick, about 1,000 psi per .001" once you've breached a certain depth beyond the minimum.
I have a first run G17 that simply won't cycle reliably with much under max. powered loads. I'm not familar with the G19 so I can't relate to any particulars.
OAL is barrel specific to be accomplsihed correctly. Each chamber is diffeent, thus the minimum OAL's published in laod data. These are only the minimums and can, or should be, increased to what will feed reliably in your firearm using the barrel while removed from your pistol to knwo when you are long enough and not too long and touching the lands. Be mindful of crimps on AL cartridges as well, they head space at the mouth and if too much crimp is applied it can significantly effect function.
I don't remember if you said you were experiencing ay FTF (mis-fires) but if so it can be the result of primers not being seated deep enough in the pocket. they shoudl be about .001" below the head or until they "talk to you" the feel of it completely seating. Another possible cause of FTF can be too much crimp causing the case to chamber too deep, to the extent that the FP can't sufficiently strike the primer.
A little something about 9mm and as well applies to other cartridges in a general regard. Speer did performed a controlled test with bullets and powdeer charges producing 28,000 psi or cup as it was measured back then. They deliberatly seated the bullets in those 28,000 psi producing rounds .030" deeper than SAMMI recomended and pressures jumped to 62,000. The point here is going longer with t your OAL isn't an issue so long as your not up into the lands. But shorter than minimum OAL drives pressures up pretty quick, about 1,000 psi per .001" once you've breached a certain depth beyond the minimum.
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