9mm max loads

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J_McLeod

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I've been working up a load for my 4" XD using 124gr Rainier HPs. My most recent batch was 4.35gr of 231 with an OAl of 1.145. The cases came out sooty and I had 2 jams out of 25 rounds. It looks like I need a heavier charge, but by the sources I'm using I'm already at or near the max load for this bullet. Should I go higher or try decreasing the OAL?
 
How are you weighing 4.35 grains?

All the powder scales I have ever seen only weigh to 1/10 grain, as in 4.3, or 4.4 grains.

But besides that, Hodgdon shows a max charge of W-231 as:
125 grain lead conical bullet = 4.4, seated 1.125".
125 grain FMJ bullet = 4.8, seated 1.090".

It seems to me your powder charge weight might have been arrived at using Lee dippers?
Which are notoriously wrong.

And your OAL might be too long.
Which would also lower pressure.

Actual Ranier data shows the 124 FP seated 1.090" OAL.
I can't imagine the 124 HP would be all that much different.

rc
 
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Well, even the Lee scale only weighs in even 1/10 grains that I know of.

Did you zero the Lee scale to all 0's using the "zero adjusting poise" before weighing powder??

rc
 
Are you getting stovepipe type malfunctions? 4.3 grains of WW231 is rather low using as long OAL as practical in my experience. Perhaps as your gun is sprung, will require a little more velocity with those bullets, and what I would attempt to work up. I can not comment on the ideal OAL for your gun, as too many variable come into play.

Not that what I write next is a load recommendation, but the Zero Bullets factory spec sheet shows 5 grains of HP38 (exact same propellant as WW231) using their 125 grain jacketed bullets. Since many will tell you to load thin plated lead bullets with data between lead and jacketed, you might consider your max right around 4.7 grains.
 
Properly assemble the ammo working up the charge minding all prudent procedures, and use a "good" OAL, and watch the stovepipes disappear in my experience.
 
This is just my .02, but get another scale. I tried using that one when I first started, and the little 1/10 slider drove me nuts. I got a small digital scale from midway on sale, and I have never looked back. That being said, if you still want to use that scale, I have a BNIB Lee scale I would sell you as a backup!
 
Sooty cases indicate light load, work up carefully to higher charge and problems should go away. 4.5 or 4.6 might do it for you. Also make sure you are maintaining a firm grip so there is resistance to the recoil which is necessary for positive function/feeding.
 
Looks like the powder charge needs to be increased. Rainier 9mm bullets are sized at .355" (same as jacketed bullet) and I find that I need to use more powder using jacketed load data than larger sized Berry's bullets (.356").

For 124 gr Berry's, even 4.2 gr at 1.135" OAL reliably cycles the slide and produces accurate shot groups.

125 gr LCN W231 .356" OAL 1.125" Start 3.9 gr (1009 fps) 25,700 CUP - Max 4.4 gr (1086 fps) 31,200 CUP

125 gr Sierra FMJ W231 .355" OAL 1.090" Start 4.4 gr (1009 fps) 24,600 CUP - Max 4.8 (1088 fps) 28,800 CUP
 
Yep. I use 4.8 gr with 124 gr plated bullets. Good stuff.

How are you weighing 4.35 grains?

All the powder scales I have ever seen only weigh to 1/10 grain, as in 4.3, or 4.4 grains.

A lot of my charges are graduated to the nearest 20th, especially with W231 and AutoComp. They meter very well. Every charge won't be that exact, but it's the working average after weighing 10 charges. Kind of like saying your bullet OAL is 1.091" when you really mean a range of ~1.086-1.096.
 
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4.3 grs of 231 under a 124 fmj rn @ 1.132" will give about 1040 - 1050fps in 'your' gun. If your hollowpoints are not feeding, you need to do a push test to determine the MAX oal for THAT bullet in YOUR gun.

In my CZ 1.1"-ish is about max for 124/125 JHPs.
XD has a shorter headspace than many also.
 
Are you running the 'stock' recoil spring? 4.3 is a 'light' load which explains your sooty cases.
I've used Zero, M.G. and Berry HPs, and none of them would let me load out that long.
Did you try a push test on a dummy round to get the OAL that will just touch the rifling?
I shoot a lot of light loads and had to change to a lighter recoil spring for reliable ejection/ to stop stovepipes.
 
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I'm using the stock spring. It's an 03-04 4" barrel XD. Haven't really tried the push test yet. The commercial rounds I'd been shooting were 1.150 and they worked, so I stayed with that. Have played around with it a bit, but mostly stay 1.14 and up, except for the 95gr loads.
 
Changing bullet nose shape will change the max oal a pistol can accept. HP, FP and conical nose bullets need to be checked for MAX oal in your pistols chamber because they often hit the lands sooner than RN bullets.

If it hits the rifling at 1.150" then subtracting around .015" to a loaded oal of 1.135" will give a little headspace, allow for press variations and allow for bullet nose shape variations.
 
As has been said, increase the charge. I'd go .2 grains at a time. load a couple hundred rounds, 50 each at 4.5, 4.7, 4.9 and 5.0. See at what level the problem disappears. I don't know what kind of firearm you're using, but I will say I've run as high as 7 grains of 231 behind a 124 in both my S&W 5906 and my baby eagle. But those loads are over max and those are very strong guns.
 
What purpose are you loading the HP rounds?

If its target practice then you are on the right track but loading a SD round I would go with a slower powder like WSF.
 
If its target practice then you are on the right track but loading a SD round I would go with a slower powder like WSF.

I dunno, I've had really good luck with 231 in .380 and 9x19 for working up hot loads that were also pretty efficient. Some of those 124 gr. 9mm loads were upwards of 500 FPE from the 4.7" BDE barrel. Heck, I was launching 102 gr. Golden Sabres out of my 84FS at 1,130 FPS with 231.
 
What purpose are you loading the HP rounds?

If its target practice then you are on the right track but loading a SD round I would go with a slower powder like WSF.
I'm loading them for plinking. I got a good deal on the Rainiers, otherwise I prefer FMJ or RN. After I shoot all these, I'll probably go to 147gr for plinking.

MachIV, what type of 124 bullet were you shooting?
 
Mr McLeod -
There are 2 major factors for chamber pressure: amount of powder and case volume under the bullet. We talk a lot in terms of "OAL", but what really matters is OAL minus bullet length. Since the manual writers didn't know your particular bullet length, the loads in the book are only a report of what worked for them. Your results will almost ALWAYS vary. Therefore, some answers may take extra work to get. Such is your case.

Your 4.3gr load at 1.145" is way too light. The volume of powder is up there, but you've extended your OAL enough to (in effect) knock it back down. The black interior of your cases says so. The black burn marks around the case mouth say so. And the rounded primers say so.

There are 2 things you can do.
• You can shorten your OAL in .010" increments (1.135", 1.125", 1.115", etc) down to 1.075" or until the interior of the cases starts to run clean (gray or tan color).
• You can start adding more powder. However, since you know you're in the warning area (at least on paper) only increase it in 0.1gr increments. (ie 4.3, 4.4, 4.5gr.)

Choose one or the other and go slowly
. The efficiency curve for powder is NOT a straight line. When you get close, it will get REALLY good very fast. It's a lot like looking for a new address. You can drive 70 MPH to the general area, but then you have to slow down to 30 MPH when you're in the neighborhood.

Load only 6-10 rounds at each new load and start with the longest OAL or least powder. Study all the fired cases before moving to the next step. When you find the gray color and the flatter primers, then STOP. Disassemble all the remaining un-shot rounds.

Do some research here on "pressure signs". Here's one of my favorite photos. You want yours to be like the one in the middle....
FiredPrimers.png

Hope this helps! ;)
 
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***Caution: This post contains load data that is over published maximums. Use at your own risk. Neither the poster or THR assumes any liability for injury or damage resulting from use or adaptation of this data***

MachIV, what type of 124 bullet were you shooting?

Gold Dots, Gold Sabres, XTP's. I lied, though. I didn't have my handload log there earlier, and my nasty 231 loads were mostly with 90 grain bullets. With 7.1 grains over magnum primers, that load clocked 1,651 FPS from the Baby Eagle for 544 FPE. 124 gr. loads with 231 I ran 5.5 grs and clocked 1,245 FPS for 427 FPE from my 92FS. In going back through, it seems I have favored Unique above all for +P loads, getting 1,410 FPS/508 FPE with 115 gr and 1,290 FPS/458 FPE with 124's.

I remembered pretty close with the .380, though. 4.2 gr. charge for 1,122 FPS
 
Have used 1.078 col for Rainer 124 hp's. COL adjusted so cz 75 will chamber em without sticking into rifling. Might consider using a chronograph to check against a manuals charge/velocity, for estimation of pressure.
 
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