9mm Reloading Problem

[Wrongcaptcha]

Alright folks, I'm brand new to 9mm reloading and semi new to reloading (I've done 1000rnds of .45 in the last month so far). I have no problems with .45 on my lee pro 1000. My old man picked up the 9mm gear to swap over on the press. I adjusted all the dies according to the lee help site, and I'm happy with the sizing, priming, and flare. I set bullet depth to slightly above the minimum OAL to 1.1". With Missouri Bullet 125gr LRN to this depth I cant chamber the round without jamming. The lead bullet has a round ring from the barrel I assume. Am I just screwed as far as having 1000rnds I cant use? They fit in the LC9, but not in my 9mm 1911. If I set the OAL down to 1.070" It fits fine. Any longer and it doesn't chamber.

Any Idea Why?

http://i.imgur.com/HKWm9.jpg

This picture shows the one that fits but is not safe to fire, and the one that is safe to load but doesn't fit my 9mm. I put a box around where the bullet has a circular ring/rub from the end of the chamber where the rifling begins.

Is there any way to safely load a 9mm to an oal of 1.070" with WIN231? I'm new to this, and all I can find in my book is not to go below minimum oal with a max load.

FYI, the cases are within +/- .001" of the factory rounds I have and chamber fine without a bullet loaded.

 

[RhinoDefense]

Now you have learned why you make a dummy round to function check your weapon before loading in large batches.

Start at the start charge, adjust your OAL so that it feeds reliably by hand cycling your weapon, then work up your load in small batches until you are satisfied with performance. Only then load large batches.

 

[GLOOB]

There's a huge variation in throat length in 9mm pistols. Just adjust the charge weight to suit. There's as much as 0.07" variation in max OAL between my 9's, depending on the bullet profile.

Too bad the throat is so short on a 1911, though. With the longer magazine well, you would have a lot of room to play with 9mm "magnum" loads with a longer throat, and you might possibly have better feeding with a longer than standard OAL. You can always have the throat reamed by a gunsmith..

If I ever come across a good deal on a used chamber reamer, I'll be giving it a try on one of my guns. I rarely shoot that one, so it's not worth making ALL my ammo short.

 

[Walkalong]

Here is a link that may help in the future.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

 

[Wrongcaptcha]

I figured this out with the dummy round thank goodness!

What is a safe starting load with Win231 if I was to load at 1.070" OAL?

The minimum OAL for the max load of 3.8gr W231 in my lee book is 1.095".
The starting load is 3.3gr.

Would I be safe to try a 3.1 or a 3.2gr load set at 1.070"? Is there a way to calculate approximate pressure?

 

[LiveLife]

Wrongcaptcha, welcome to THR.

I would start at 3.5 gr using the shorter OAL of 1.07" and working up to around 4.1 gr.

The Missouri Bullets 125 gr RN (SmallBall!) has more rounded nose compared to the pointed nose of traditional 9mm bullet. The reason for this is material is removed from the pointed nose tip and is added to the base of the bullet to provide more "bearing surface" that engages the rifling of the barrel - this shape also makes the base of the bullet nose engage the rifling sooner . This latest generation nose shape provides more stability and feeds/chambers better in some newer semi-auto pistols.

If you are getting a round ring from the barrel at 1.10" OAL, then you need to decrease the OAL. I have tested the bullet down to 1.08" OAL and found I needed to decrease the powder charge a bit (like .2-.3 gr compared to 1.125"). Yes, you do not want to decrease the OAL using a max load. BTW, I usually load these to 1.10"-1.120" OAL with 4.1-4.3 gr W231/HP38.

Hodgdon's load data from website:

125 gr LCN W231/HP38 Diameter .356" OAL 1.125" Start 3.9 gr (1009 fps) 25,700 CUP - Max 4.4 gr (1086 fps) 31,200 CUP

 

[GLOOB]

You might like to try these bullets, in the future:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=581070

 

[918v]

I used to load a 125gr lead TC to 1.050" OAL with 3.7 to 4.1grs of 231 for my M9. This load was about perfect.

 

[Wrongcaptcha]

Thanks for the input guys.

I'm going to give it a go and start very low. I plan on working this load up to use as a potential IDPA round, something I can afford to shoot that has a similar feel to my SD cartridge.

Anyone else who has loaded 9mm to a short OAL, I value your input and would like to hear about your experiences.

bds, thanks for the welcome and the info!

 

[Miata Mike]

I'm going to give it a go and start very low. I plan on working this load up to use as a potential IDPA round, something I can afford to shoot that has a similar feel to my SD cartridge.

Only make a few of the lowest charges. Last week I found Lee's data conservative. I used 1.125" OAL I settled on 4.0 grains of HP-38 which was a little more than it took to reliably cycle my Ruger P95. Like others have said, using a shorter OAL should need a bit less powder.

I loaded 40 more for my next range trip and 10 more at 4.1 for poops and grins.
I might add it seemed like a very accurate load so far.

 

[Wrongcaptcha]

Well, after loading 20 or so at 1.080" with 3.2gr of 231 I'm going to need to bump it up ALOT. Barely moves the slide, not even close to full cycle, out of the 20 only one shell came out enough to stovepipe.

I guess I'm being overly cautious, so I'll bump up to at least 3.5 or 3.7 before I head back to the range with another small batch.

Best part: I have very little 9mm brass, most people reload at my club and only leave steel case/.22 behind. A new guy must have been by who shot 200+ 9mm rounds, shinny brass all over! I filled the 4 boxes left in the trash and then some with 9mm brass. I walked away with a handful of fresh 45 too!

 

[rcmodel]

I guess I'm being overly cautious,

Yes, you are.

I came to this game late, but seating shorter, to whatever it needs to be to fit the gun, is not going to have any dangerous effect on a starting 9mm load.

I'd hazard a guess you will be up around 4.0 grains when you get a halfway decent performing load going.

rc

 

[Miata Mike]

I guess I'm being overly cautious, so I'll bump up to at least 3.5 or 3.7 before I head back to the range with another small batch.

My loads only fully cycled every load at 3.8 grains. Do not make more than a couple of the 3.5 to 3.7 grain.

 

[VirginiaHam]

Glock owners: read your warranty on your pistol. Glock does not cover reloads. The main reason being is an unsupported chamber. If you are going to shoot reloads, buy an after market supported chamber barrel. e.g. http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=937&CAT=238 or the applicable barrel for the model of glock you have.
Safety first -- always!

 

[twofifty]

Yet some of the world's best action pistol competitors use their own custom-tailored reloads in their Glocks. And they're sponsored by the factory.

 

[918v]

The main reason being is an unsupported chamber.

Really? And you know this how? Does installing an aftermarket barrel with a fully suported chamber restore the warranty?

 

[Miata Mike]

I am sure that these cream puff loads should never be a problem in the worst unsupported Glock ever made in 9mm. I would not hesitate to use these loads in one.....Well I would test the lead loads in stock barrels.

 

[918v]

Glock 9mm barrels are fine. Glock 9mm pistols do not have a KB problem.

 

[LiveLife]

Huh? Why are we hijacking the thread about shooting reloads in a Glock?

OP is not shooting a Glock ...

They fit in the LC9, but not in my 9mm 1911

My loads only fully cycled every load at 3.8 grains.

Mike, OP seemed very cautious thinking about starting at 3.1-3.3 gr. Nothing wrong with being cautious when working up your loads. I suggested 3.5 gr to 4.1 gr to save him some powder. Yes, 3.8 gr was the minimum charge that would barely cycle the slide, but this way OP gets to experience the process and KNOW which powder charge works for the shorter 1.070" OAL. As rc posted, OP should have better success (reliable slide cycling and accuracy) as the powder charge approaches 4.1 gr.

 

[Miata Mike]

Mike, OP seemed very cautious thinking about starting at 3.1-3.3 gr. Nothing wrong with being cautious when working up your loads. I suggested 3.5 gr to 4.1 gr to save him some powder. Yes, 3.8 gr was the minimum charge that would barely cycle the slide, but this way OP gets to experience the process and KNOW which powder charge works for the shorter 1.070" OAL. As rc posted, OP should have better success (reliable slide cycling and accuracy) as the powder charge approaches 4.1 gr.

You are correct bds. Working up is the way to go.

Only make a few of the lowest charges.

I found it painful to burn up the underpowered charges and was hoping to save some of the same frustration I felt.

Given the shorter OAL, Wrongcaptcha's results could be quite different than mine. So rock on and let us know how the next range trip goes!

 

[Red Cent]

Are you sure the lead bullet ring is not the seater punch inside your die? I would have the chamber in the 1911 gauged.

1.07" is real short. I reload (G34) 147gr Berry plated RN at 1.40" with Clays. One of the favorite loads of IDPA. Large bullet slow powder soft recoil.

A local 5 gun IDPA Grandmaster uses the same load.

 

[918v]

OK.

Since nobody knows how to help you, here is my analysis:

The rub mark is from the freebore. The rub mark is OK as long as the slide goes into battery. All this is showing is a nice tight fit between the freebore and the bullet. It will help to prevent leading by sealing the chamber and keeping all the hot gas behind the bullet.

If the bullet is too big and the slide won't close, you should reduce the diameter of the bullet and NOT seat it deeper. Lee makes a bullet sizer die for a standard press in .001" increments.

 

[Red Cent]

918v, need to expand on that. Bullet should not be "too big". Missouri Bullet 125gr LRN.
And at 1.07" I would seriously doubt it is touching the rifling.
Why would you resize a factory manufactured bullet? Snowball chance of it being sized improperly. Size it down and the brass will not retain the bullet.

Wrong, how many rounds have you fired in the 1911 9MM?

 

[918v]

If his freebore measures .356" and he is cramming a .356" bullet in it, a rub mark will form. Even if his freebore measures .357", a .356" bullet will rub due to the angle at which the round chambers.

Reducing the diameter of the bullet slightly will make chambering easier.

It's not about shooting 9mm 1911's but rather about understanding chamber dimensions and how a loaded round fits in there.

 

[LiveLife]

I can just picture many 1911 shooters who have shot this bullet shaking their head. There is no need for resizing this bullet.
The size of the bullet is not the problem, OAL used is.

We are way over thinking/discussing this - if we were to load RNFP or TCFP, we would be using shorter OALs. As posted, use the OAL that will feed/chamber well in YOUR pistol/barrel and work up the load from the start charge that will give you accurate shot groups with reliable cycling of the slide.


OK, here's an illustration as why the Missouri Bullets 125 gr RN (Smallball!) can/needs to be loaded to shorter OALs.

If you look at the drawing below (not to scale), material is removed from the nose tip of the traditional 9mm nose shape and added to the base of the nose - this provides greater bearing surface area that will engage the rifling sooner for more consistent chamber pressure buildup and greater stability in the barrel (which improve accuracy).

Those used to traditional, more "pointed" 9mm bullet nose will be taken back at first due to the nose shape and the need to seat the bullet shorter to achieve the "proper" look of the bullet. I have tested 1.080" to 1.125" OAL with good results and usually use about 1.100" OAL that will feed in multiple pistols. If your pistol will feed/chamber longer OALs, then you certainly can use the longer OAL. For my factory Glock and Lone Wolf barrels, they work well all the way out to 1.125".

Keep us posted.