9mm vs. 45 debate.. but a little different

[starplayer]

i was at the range and a buddy that i've seen before noticed a new pistol that i had recently purchased.. a subcompact glock .40. we were talking about balistics and he noted that even though it could be a .40, or even a .45.. a 9mm comming from a barrel, lets say 5 inches, will have significantly more impact, ballistics speaking, then a .45 comming out of a 3 inch barrel. i could see the logic in that because a bullet speeds up in the barrel. but by how much?

it's pretty clear (IMO) that a 5inch .45 pistol would outperform a 5inch 9mm pistol

but lets ask, what would have a higher ballistics score.. if we took a 3inch kimber .45 and comared it to a glock37 9mm (5.32 inches)??? what would do what?

i can't figure it out because most ballistic X amount of pressure or pounds would all be done by the same gun, from what i have been able to find anyway..

any information would be greatly appreciated. thanks

 

[Canuck-IL]

You just want muzzle energy as a function of velocity for bullets of different weights, right?

I think you can get the graphics for different fps (ie. different barrel lengths and loads) from a site like this http://stevespages.com/bvtengy.shtml

Is that what you wanted?
/Bryan

 

[MachIVshooter]

What point exactly was this person trying to argue? This is like someone stating that their 1.6 liter Honda engine produces just as much horsepower as your small block Dodge/Chvy/Ford, so long as their turbo is spooled and they are on the N2O. And of course they forget all about torque, which for the purpose of this argument relates to bullet diameter-a critical component of handgun wound ballistics, since no handgun cartridge develops enough velocity to impart the devastating injury associated with rifle rounds.

If he wants to tote around a 5" 9mm, more power to him. But most of us prefer a smaller gun for CCW, and when comparing auto's with matching barrel lengths, the .45 will always come out on top, save 10mm.

 

[starplayer]

Thanks Bryan, but the site isn't really too clear to me. I think I'll just cornograph it myself and let ya'll know..

 

[GTSteve03]

If he wants to tote around a 5" 9mm, more power to him. But most of us prefer a smaller gun for CCW, and when comparing auto's with matching barrel lengths, the .45 will always come out on top, save 10mm.

So you're saying the .45 from a 3" barrel that is struggling to break 700fps with the 230gr load, or the 185gr load with a worse sectional density than the same weight in .40, will still outperform? Oh yeah, everything except the 10mm, but that doesn't count right cause it's too powerful?

 

[461]

Glock 37 isn't a 9mm, it's a .45GAP. I think you're thinking of the G34 which is the 9mm version, or even the 17L which is a 6 inch barrel. I know it's a tired old argument, but I wouldn't want to get hit by either one.

 

[MachIVshooter]

So you're saying the .45 from a 3" barrel that is struggling to break 700fps with the 230gr load, or the 185gr load with a worse sectional density than the same weight in .40, will still outperform? Oh yeah, everything except the 10mm, but that doesn't count right cause it's too powerful?

What I am saying as a handloader that pushes the limits of every cartridge and as the owner of 3.3-3.5" barreled compacts (as well as 4 and 5" guns) in 9mm, .40, .45 and 10mm is that the .45 outperforms both the 9mm and .40 in muzzle energy and in the ballistic clay. The 10mm does exceed the .45's ballistics and does cause a more devastating wound channel in ballistic clay.

For fairness, when comparing .40 and 10mm with 9mm and .45, one should use +P loads in 9mm and .45 because .40 and 10mm operate at pressures higher still than +P for the others.

And FWIW, my top loads from 5" guns are as follows (velocities are averages for a minimum of 20 rounds):

9mm: 115 gr. Gold dot @ 1411 FPS; 508 ft/lbs
.40 S&W: 135 gr. Sierra JHP @ 1355 FPS; 551 ft/lbs
.45 ACP: 200 gr. Gold Dot @ 1157 FPS; 595 ft/lbs
10mm: 180 gr. Gold Sabre @ 1406 FPS; 790 ft/lbs

Each load drops 50-70 FPS in the 3.3 or 3.5" barrels, resulting in a similar loss in muzzle energy. I also don't consider the 115 gr. 9mm load or the 135 gr. 40 load good defensive rounds becasue the velocities exceed the bullet's spectrum for reliable performance. I use 124 gr. 9mm and 155 gr. .40 loads. I listed these loads to illustrate the highest energy levels I have achieved for 9mm and .40 without signs of overpressure. I load only 180, 190 or 200 in 10mm and 200, 230 or 260 in .45 for the same reason.

Cor-Bon has 185 gr. loads for .45 ACP that hit 656 ft/lbs from my 5" Colt MK IV.

It is my belief that, since handgun rounds are all weak at best, one should use the most powerful cartridge they can handle (not including .454, .50 , etc. with their heavily constructed hunting bullets).

For the record, I carry a Witness Compact 10mm with my 180 gr. Gold Sabre loads. From the 3.5" tube, they still hit 1342 FPS.

 

[GunLocators]

.45's have a lot more mass I think regardless in a gunfight it comes to bullet placement

 

[MCgunner]

9mm is the ballistic equal with hollow point bullets of the .45 except that .45+P can be pushed for slightly more energy than a 9 can and, of course, shoots a fatter, heavier bullet to make those energies if that matters to you. I don't think the bad guy cares much which he gets shot with. Assuming proper shot placement, he'll be just as dead. You can't shoot 'em in the foot with either one and expect positive results. In FMJ ball, of course, the .45 is more effective even though energies are pretty much the same in standard pressure loads. Either caliber is plenty for self defense if you can shoot it well. I like the 9 for the small compact guns you can get it in. You cannot get the .45 in such a small platform and the little 9mm compact double stacks carry quite a few rounds, too. A +P or +P+ 9 out of a compact 3" gun is almost like carrying a little 11 shot .357 magnum in a pocket. And, a bonus is it's a lot more shootable than a .357 revolver, less flash/bang and recoil due to light loads of faster burning powder. But, 400+ ft lbs is treading on snubby .357 territory any way you look at it. Only if you're a heavy bullet kinda guy will you fail to be impressed. Anyway, it's more'n enough regardless! Beats the heck outta .38 or .380 ballistically and in guns not that much larger or heavier and in some cases actually smaller than traditional .380s like the PPK.

The .40 is a superior round to either of these calibers and is available in some of the same tiny compacts that the 9 is, G26 vs G27 for instance. I don't have one, though. Never got excited about the .40. I've got a couple of nines and a .45. I figure I don't really need a .40, frankly. If I didn't already have carry guns in effective calibers, I might try a .40. But, I shoot the 9 and my .45 quite well and I don't think I'm lacking any horsepower with either to do the job. The advantage a .40 has over 'em amounts to less that 100 ft lbs. ***, why get excited over that? Besides, I'm already set up for reloading the 9 and .45 and have tested loads for each. And, the price of 9mm store bought ammunition has until recently been in the .22 mag range! I notice the price is going back up on 9mm stuff, so I may be reloading it again in the future. No biggy, I can crank a box out pretty fast with my progressive.

 

[MCgunner]

9mm: 115 gr. Gold dot @ 1411 FPS; 508 ft/lbs
.40 S&W: 135 gr. Sierra JHP @ 1355 FPS; 551 ft/lbs
.45 ACP: 200 gr. Gold Dot @ 1157 FPS; 595 ft/lbs
10mm: 180 gr. Gold Sabre @ 1406 FPS; 790 ft/lbs

Don't know where you got those numbers, but I've never gotten much over 500 ft lbs with the .45+P nor 440 in the 9 +P and that's out of 5" guns. The .40 and 10 look pretty well right, but you're over the top on the 9 and 45. My +P loads are hot enough to swell the case a little into the feed ramp area. I ain't goin' no hotter'n that! I loaded that +P .45 for carry when chasing hogs with dogs. I don't carry the gun anymore doing that since I got a .45 Colt Blackhawk. My SD load makes 400 ft lbs and it's more'n enough for the purpose. Really is no need to push hotter than that. These are self defense calibers, not bear protection! The 10mm is actually excessive IMHO, but it's definately the top of the heap in semi auto defense calibers and can double as an effective outdoor/hunting caliber. It's the .357 mag of auto pistols.

 

[wanderinwalker]

For fairness, when comparing .40 and 10mm with 9mm and .45, one should use +P loads in 9mm and .45 because .40 and 10mm operate at pressures higher still than +P for the others.

That's just silly. .40 S&W and 9mm Luger operate at the same pressure ceiling last I knew, roughly 35k PSI. Don't know what 10mm operates at, but I doubt it is much beyond the 36-38k PSI range. These are handguns, not highpowered rifles. .45 ACP IS much lower than the other 3 though, around 15-18k PSI IIRC.

My experience is that standard pressure 9mm loads didn't lose a lot of velocity between my 4.5" G-17 and the 3.5" G-26 I had. I chrono'ed around 1200-fps with a 124 with the 26 at one point. Don't remember the exact numbers, but it was close to that. The 17 ran just about 50-fps or so faster.

 

[Tacticaldude]

starplayer,
First of all Congratz on the new pistol...I think he's just jealous. Just walk away.
Anyway, I vote for " It's not the caliber , It's bullet placement that counts."

Take care and be safe

 

[RyanM]

Barrel length makes very little difference with regular factory ammo. 124 gr at 1120 fps from a 4" barrel, 1080 fps from a 3" barrel, 1145 fps from a 5" barrel. Big whoop. .45 would be more like 230 gr at 875 fps from a 5", 860 from a 4", 835 from a 3". Once again, big whoop.

 

[AndyC]

Oy...another 9mm vs 45 debate. I'm staying out of this one

 

[NateG]

Ahh... it's the 9mm/.45 deathmatch!! run for your lives!

All else being equal, bigger and faster beats slower and smaller. But, all things aren't equal, and there are real-world constraints--hence the tradeoffs. As long as you find something "adequate" (>=9mm? >=.380? or whatever floor you're willing to go for) in a gun that you shoot well and know the tradeoffs of your 1911glosighkahrugerus and the cartridge you choose, you'll be fine. Whaddya know, the 10mm is more powerful than the 9mm, and the 500S&W makes them both look anemic. So? a well placed 9mm will do most anything you ask of it, and I sure wouldn't scoff at a .40S&W either.

(said by an unabashed fan of the .45ACP)

Have fun with your new Glock. I can't say I'm a huge fan of them... they just don't feel right (But they do shoot well...the sights just want to be lined up). But I can see why other folks like them. Enjoy.

Sorry for the rambling, I have a tendency to get spun up when folks get into the which is "best"/most powerful debate. Nothing like a cartridge argument to turn this preacher's son into a complete relativist

 

[gearbox]

I'm still trying to find the "a little different" part of this thread

In any case, it will still come down to bullet design, a reliable gun, and shot placement. Nuts to "potential."

 

[KC&97TA]

Doesn't the Springfield XD hold like 14 rounds of .45acp?

I like my Beretta 92 for the 15 round mag, working on gettting a 20 rounder for HD - IMHO this is a great set up teamed up with Crimson Trace Grips for running out the door as a back up to my Carbine

I like my 45acp for home defence teamed up with Corbon Hollow Points

IMHO it comes down to capacity and how much stopping power you want ... but you don't hurt them if you don't him'em. I feel that the 9mm can hold double the ammo than a .45acp, but you may need to double tap with a 9mm compared to the stopping power of a 45

I don't like the 45gap, for the reason that I can't pick the ammo up at a 'hill-billy gas station" in northern MN

 

[robertbank]

All you need is one in either caliber - just hit them in the head! If you need 14 for home defense then you aren't living in the US - you just woke up in the middle of Bagdad on a bad day.

Take Care

 

[MachIVshooter]

Don't know where you got those numbers, but I've never gotten much over 500 ft lbs with the .45+P nor 440 in the 9 +P and that's out of 5" guns. The .40 and 10 look pretty well right, but you're over the top on the 9 and 45. My +P loads are hot enough to swell the case a little into the feed ramp area

That'll happen with unsupported chambers. I worked up my .45+P for use in my S&W 4506, which will handle 45 super with no modifications. Firing these loads in my 1911's yields the same bulge you describe.

The 9mm loads have been developed using both a Baby Eagle and a Beretta 92 FS. I have fired them in my 9000S, but generally stock that with more mild 147 gr. loads.

The .40 loads were developed in my S&W 4006 and require magnum primers and compressed charges to achieve stated velocity from the 4" tube.

10mm loads are fine in all of my 10's (Kimber, S&W 1006, Witness compact).

.40 S&W and 9mm Luger operate at the same pressure ceiling last I knew, roughly 35k PSI. Don't know what 10mm operates at, but I doubt it is much beyond the 36-38k PSI range. These are handguns, not highpowered rifles. .45 ACP IS much lower than the other 3 though, around 15-18k PSI IIRC.

.40 and 9mm have the same maximum, but 9mm is generally not loaded nearly as close to that 35,000 as .40 is. This is why there is no .40 +p; it is maxxed already. 10mm is currently established at 37,500, though it was originally intended to be a 44,000 PSI cartridge. I do not have a strain gauge, but I imagine my loads are closer to the early spec.

.45 ACP is 21K.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Shot placement is enhanced by the 9mm which does not kick like a mule.

And the .45 ACP does?

I agree with shot placement. I'd feel happy with a .45, .40, 10mm, 9mm, or a .22. Just so long as I have a gun to rely upon. Isn't that all that matters? Caliber wars aside, shouldn't we be content with knowing there someone out there using their right as a citizen of the United States to carry a gun? I figured that since this is a gun forum that encourages everyone to buy more guns, shoot them more often, and teach others how to shoot, that they'd be estatic to know that someone would have interest in a gun. Whether it be a glock 9mm or a 1911 .45 ACP. It takes all shapes and sizes.

 

[S&Wfan]

The best gun to shoot and be effective with, is the gun one shoots best and most confidently, for shot placement is almost everything in preventing the other person from shooting back at you.

That being said, my favorite short barreled defensive gun isn't even an automatic . . . but this moon clipped, chopped 3 1/2" barrelled S&W 25-2 in .45ACP!

Tom

PS: Due to the size of this wonderful revolver, my CCW carry gun is a 1st type Kimber CDP Ultra Carry, also in .45ACP.

 

[Manedwolf]

Shot placement is enhanced by the 9mm which does not kick like a mule. The along comes the .45 GAP and screws that theory up.

That's been solved to large extent by more advanced polymers and better design, though. My new Taurus MilPro PT745, tiny as it is, really doesn't kick that hard at all. Very easy to reaquire for followup shots quickly. Many years have passed since the Colt Officer's and today's latest designs.

.357 magnum, now, in an ultralightweight small-as-possible revolver...that just HURTS.

 

[CAnnoneer]

I'd say the primary advantage of a longer barrel is the shooter having easier time with accuracy. A very stable hand and a sharp eye can do pretty well even with a 2" barrel, but a 5" makes things so much easier.

 

[fredfellini]

Try Taylor's Knock-out Formula

Barrel length will affect velocity. There are three critical factors to consider including caliber, bullet weight, and velocity.

Because manufacturers' muzzle energy figures (in feet/pounds) do not take caliber into account, John "Pondoro" Taylor created the following formula:

caliber (inches) x bullet weight (grains) x velocity) / 7000

This formula yields a relative knock-out factor for any variable combinations!

Some examples:

.45acp x 230 gr x 850 fps = 12.60 kof
.44mag x 240 gr x 1400 fps = 21 kof

The higher the result, the greater the knock-out factor.
Do a search on the web for Taylor's knock out factor.

 

[SFvet]

It was my understanding that since the 10mm Auto became less used, it went the way of the .41mag hence the 10mm is actually a .41 mag.