9x19 vs 9mm Parabelum vs 9mm Luger

[Autolycus]

I just like my 9mm to be good old fashioned 9mm.

 

[wilkersk]

Not exactly. During the last part of WWII, Germany was running out of basic components – lead, for example. They started using ‘sintered’ (compressed or MIM) mild steel bullets in 9mm Parabellum ammo. Those bullets were lighter than the standard lead core bullets. In order to produce the standard pressure, the charges were adjusted (jacked up) to make the guns work. So the lighter bullet going faster was thought of as ‘hotter’. It was the same pressure as the regular lead core ammo. Which is somewhat higher than the ammo loaded in the U. S.

Some U. S. munitions makers started manufacturing 9mm ‘Lugar’ ammo (don’t know why they changed the name, but marketing has always been a mystery to me) for the British Army to use in Sten submachinguns. U. S. munitions makers seem to be a conservative bunch and the pressure levels were keep at minimal ranges, to not blow up anything. The result being the ammo would not correctly work the Sten gun; it would not always move the bolt far enough to the rear to engage the sear when the trigger was released. This caused the Sten guns to continue to fire until the magazine was empty. This in turn caused the British Army to mark the ammo “Not for submachinegun use”. This information trickled back to the U. S. but was garbled into the myth ‘submachinegun ammo’ was more powerful and would destroy American handguns.

Think about this for a moment: Would any government load a ‘special lot’ of any ammunition that would destroy some guns? Proof test ammo is not general issue. ‘Sabotage’ ammo left for insurgents to blow themselves up is not general issue. No Army every knowingly issued ammo to its own troops dangerous to be fired.

The same sort thing happened in the U. S. .357 Magnum ammo used to be loaded with 158 grain bullets. In the 1970s or so, Federal (I think) picked up on Lee Jurras’ idea of ‘SuperVel’ ammo and developed a 115 grain bullet at very high velocity in the .357 Magnum. This ammo would sometimes crack the forcing cones of S&W “K” frame model 19 revolvers. The ammo was still loaded to the same maximum pressure levels; but the stress on the barrel was different. Still, this lead to the belief the 115 grain ammo was ‘hotter’; generated more pressure. Does that sound familiar?



Okay, European ammo has always been loaded to higher pressure levels than the equivalent U. S. ammo. U. S. made 8x57 Mauser ammo is weaker than the European versions. Even .38 Special is loaded stronger in Europe. Europe (at least used to) thinks if you put modern ammo in an old gun and blow yourself up, you’re a dummy. It’s probably changing. Still European ammo will not ‘blow up’ a properly made American gun. It might wear out faster, but it won’t explode.

"si vis pacem, para bellum"

Interesting post, thanks!

 

[doubs43]

In the mid-late 1950's Interarmco was selling WW2 surplus 9mm ammo through their civilian outlet "Ye Olde Hunter", based in Alexandria. VA. Corrosive 9mm was $4 per 100 and non-corrosive was $5 a hundred. The non-corrosive was boxer-primed Winchester and I shot quite a bit of it in a couple of Lugers, an AC-41 P-38 and an Astra 600. It came in a plain white box, 50 rounds per container. It was good reliable ammo.

I can't comment on the cheaper corrosive ammo as I never bought any of it. It could have been made almost anywhere.

I'm surprised this thread has reached 3 pages as the answer to the original question is simple: It's all the same cartridge by a different designation.

 

[rondog]

Meh, I just shoot .45 acp to keep things simple.

 

[atblis]

Wow

$4 per 100 rounds in 1952. That sounds really expensive. What is that in today's dollars?

 

[middy]

$4 per 100 rounds in 1952. That sounds really expensive. What is that in today's dollars?

That's the equivalent of $32.44 in 2008 dollars.

 

[cchris]

Which is expensive, but that's the price that people jack it up to these days.

Wal-Mart, when they have ammo, has 100 rounds of Remington UMC for $22, 100 rounds of WWB for $20, and 100 rounds of Blazer for less than $18.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Look on wikipedia, there is a whole chart for the 9mm family

cchris, 9x18 covers a couple of incompatible rounds, one of which is the 9mm Mak

 

[mesinge2]

9x18mm Makarov
9x18mm Police (9mm Ultra)
9mm Browning Long (9x20mm Browning SR)
9mm Glisenti
9x19mm Parabellum (9mm Luger, 9x19mm NATO)
9mm Federal
9x21mm IMI
9x21mm Gyurza (9x21mm SP-10)
9mm Action Express (9mm AE)
9x23mm Steyr
9mm Largo (9mm Bergmann-Bayard, 9x23mm Largo)
9mm Super Cooper (9x22mm Super Cooper)
9x23mm Winchester
9mm Mars
9mm Mauser Export (Export caliber for C96)
9mm Winchester Magnum
9x25mm Dillon
9x25mm Super Auto G
9x30mm Magnum (9mm Dillon Magnum)

 

[Krayzae Karl]

The 9x19 cartridge

I came across this thread and thought I could add a bit of what I know. I still see this dicussed quite often. If anyone knows otherwise please correct me. This is what I have gathered based on my loading data, service training and a love of German made firearms.
9x19mm cartridges, Are they the same? Well yes and no. For all intensive purposes, Yes.
Anytime you see the 9mm or 9x19mm they are interchangeable, based on the three mentioned.
All these terms are the same as far as the 9x19 cartridge are concerned. The names have been adopted based on the pressure testing by C.I.P and SAAMI and the name it was submitted to them under. This is the reason for the different names of the 9x19mm cartridge. Luger created the 9x19mm. Nicknamed 9mm Luger because of the first firearm it was used in, the Luger Semi-automatic pistol built by the German company DWM. DWM's motto was Si vis pacem, para bellum Latin for "If you seek peace, prepare for war". Most likely where the name parabellum came from. The word parabellum is still used in Germany (have an H&K you know this) and a good part of Europe.
9x19 Variants:
9mm Luger and
9mm Parabellum are the same.
9mm NATO is the same as a 9mm Luger or parabellum that is over pressure:
9mm Parabellum +P or
9mm Luger +P
NATO rounds are also almost always exclusively FMJ ball rounds

If you load you know +P is an over pressure round and +P+ is an extremely over pressure round. +P+ is used by many military and LEO's as their SERVICE ammo +P+ is not used for training, this is due to the added stress it puts on the firearm. Most any high quality handgun can use any of these ammos without malfunction.
Two types of 9x19mm that were developed by the Russians for cycling of submachine guns and armour penetration are:
9×19mm 7N21 +P+
9×19mm 7N31 +P+
Caution should be used before these are used as they haven't been tested by C.I.P or SAAMI and are suspected of running pressures even higher than that of traditional +P+.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I need to learn to check dates on these threads.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

This is the thread that refuses to die. KILL IT. KILL IT WITH FIRE.

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

This is the thread that refuses to die. KILL IT. KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Nah. Use a 7.72X25!

 

[9mmepiphany]

This is the thread that refuses to die. KILL IT. KILL IT WITH FIRE.

I can do that