A 45 "Why" Question

[David E]

A spring knocked out of whack "killed" a gun? Replacing springs can cause "serious problems?"

It sounds like things a good gunsmith can fix easily.

The recoil and firing pin spring should be replaced every 5000 rds at minimum. This avoids the frame battering a worn out spring allows.

The firing pin spring can wear and bind the firing pin, causing misfires. (it happened to me)

It's a good idea to testfire the gun after ANY replacement if parts, even basic springs.

This is the only thing the OP should do, everything else is optional.

 

[intercooler]

I tend to agree with your questions.

I changed the sights and grips on my GP100 for Crimson Trace/Stag panels and a HiViz front sight but have no desire to do any trigger work since it works fine in my book. Function stuff and to pretty up the all black CT grip.

I changed my Hunter's front sight to a Henning fiber front (got it with the gun) and put on Henning's grip panels due to one factory wood panel being broke and them not fitting right. Also upped the recoil spring to a 22lb and an extra power firing pin spring since I shoot upper end 10mm loads. Functions fine just like it is.

I changed the Elite Match grip panels for a Hogue wrap-around and put in a 20lb recoil spring and extra power firing pin spring again for the upper end 10mm loads. Functions fine just like it is but may also add a Henning or factory EAA fiber front sight.

The XD I added a Hogue over-grip and it was a nice improvement. I want to add either the XDM adjustable fiber sights or TruGlo TFO's to this piece. Functions fine just like it is just want better sights.

My little 22A had factory HiViz front and adjustable rear sight. I haven't even changed the original shock buffer although I see some people do after a couple thousand rounds. Kind of baffles me because I shoot the hot Aguila and CCI Stingers and it is still kicking. I have tried to find a heavier recoil spring but no luck so far. Shoots fine just the way it is!

 

[BCRider]

2. Why change a trigger to one with little holes in it and a hammer that looks so thin that it might snap in two? Does it really make a difference? Trigger I have seems smooth and crisp to me.

The others have addressed much of the other points but I feel this one got missed for an answer.

THose who do a trigger job to reduce the pull weight and travel down to a very light and short "break" found that the simple recoil of the gun could actually cause the momentum of a solid all metal trigger to pull the next shot. This led to lightening the metal trigger in an effort to avoid this. Other companies, like STI, have also come out with skeletonized plastic trigger shoes combined with a lighter bow to aid in avoiding this issue.

To be clear we're talking about guns set up with a 2 to 2.5 lb trigger pull and cut down hammer and sear hooks so that the guns almost seem like they shoot by thought control. With that sort of setup the stock GI all metal trigger shoe and full width bow just produces too many issues.


The rest of the stuff was quite well explained by the others. But a fact which seems to have been missed is how the guns are used by some for competition shooting. For those folks the full length guide rod is a way of making the front end more heavy to aid in taming recoil so they can make quicker follow up shots. Similarly the need for a different recoil spring and possibly for tuning the extractor is based on shooting ammo which is less powerful than regular off the shelf ammo but which still meets the power requirements from the rule book. Such ammo may not be able to fully cycle the slide on a stock gun. Hence the need for a lighter than usual recoil spring and maybe for slightly altering some of the angles on the hook of the extractor to encourage the rim to slip up into the seat of the slide.

If it seems like all these things are centered around trying to make something out of the 1911 that it wasn't originally intended to be you're right. They need to be done as a fully supporting "suite" of changes or the gun ends up being more problematic than if just left alone.

As for changing out your rear sight to an adjustable I'd have to ask "why?". Is it not shooting your ammo of choice to POA? If not why not just drift or file down the existing sights? Once set I've never adjusted any of my adjustable sights. Meanwhile my fixed sight guns all shoot just fine... unless I change out the ammo to something that is "on the edge" either for power or bullet weight.

 

[JHenry]

if i ever get my 1911 i will buy a magwell and some either solid aluminum or damascus steel grips, fitted for the magwell of course. And perhaps a ported barrel. Other than that ill buy some nice 10 rounders and ammo

 

[rskent]

Why Not?

 

[BYJO4]

Most changes that are made on new guns are unneeded but if that makes one happier with a gun then go far it. Some cosmetic changes do add to the looks but rareley the accuracy. Everyone has their own preferences and thats what keeps the manufacturers in business.

 

[m1911.10mm]

I can't imagine there are a whole lot of 69 year old shooters who will shoot a handgun like that out to 25 or 50 yards. I'm 20 years younger than that, and have a bad time past 7 yards.

To each his own, I suppose, but that handgun you are talking about is the kind of handgun that I would shoot just as it is.

The only one thing that I would even consider is possibly putting Crimson Trace grips on it. This only if the handgun is kept for any possible SD role at all.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that the Novak's sight you refer to is adjustable for elevation only. You can adjust for windage with a drift punch and a hammer, just like most other sights, but when they say "adjustable", a screwdriver gets you adjustments only to elevation.

I'd sure be interested to hear what Novak's has to say about a need for re-finishing the whole slide.

They will talk to you just as long as you care to talk. Actually, maybe longer than you care to talk.

I suppose I look at that R1 and think of it the same way as the Delta Elite that I picked up a few weeks ago. If you are going to shoot it - shoot it just like it came out of the box.

.

 

[PabloJ]

I'm with you Sir. I don't get it either. This pistol cost me $350 and you can see from the pictures it is bone stock, except for the $6 grips that are easier to hold. (You'll have to trust me on the insides I suppose.) If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Hey that last cartridge in spare mag is loaded backwards. Are sure that grandpops style gun can handle JHPs?

 

[jmr40]

if it isn't broke; don't "fix" it.

Sometimes this is good advice, but there is another saying:

"Sometimes good things must end, before better things can begin."

The key is knowing when each bit of wisdom is the right advice.

With 1911's most of the changes can be for the better. I have no use for FLGR's, light rails, super light triggers, wrap around grips and a few other "improvements". But I can see why some would be helpful.

The commander style hammer and larger beavertail certainly prevent my hand from being bitten by the hammer.

A longer trigger fits my larger hands better than the short GI style trigger.

The newer sights are a huge improvement over the tiny GI style.

The decision between flat or arched MSH is a personal preference and I have no problem with a 1911 owner changing to whatever style fits their hand better.

 

[xXxplosive]

Your gun has to work for YOU...........if it does to your satisfaction without any reservations, why would you change anything. If this pistol is a defensive weapon and it functions properly and is accurate to your demands.....that's it.
If this pistol is meant for traget work / competition, that another story entirely.........

 

[Ankeny]

If this pistol is meant for target work / competition, that another story entirely...

My sentiments exactly. When a person launches several thousand rounds a month down range, it's nice to have everything tuned to perfection.

The commander style hammer and larger beaver tail certainly prevent my hand from being bitten by the hammer.

I couldn't agree more. With my big hands and meaty web, there is no way I would shoot a GI style hammer and grip safety configuration.

As far as question 3 regarding the extractor. There is nothing wrong with tuning the extractor and ejector for 100% reliability and for "ejection perfection" if you know what you are doing. If you are happy with having one that "just works", so be it.

 

[Jim K]

I agree that the owner of any product has a perfect right to rebuild or alter it to his satisfaction (as long as he does not make it unsafe), but most of the stuff written about this has to be done and that has to be done is garbage, promoted by the makers of after-market parts and gadgets. Good springs should last almost forever; when a junk spring needs replacement it will usually be replaced with another junk spring.

Two purposes are served by a full length guide rod. The maker becomes richer, and the gun will go off if dropped, with more laws requiring firing pin safety devices.

Jim

 

[JRH6856]

As for adjustable sights w/o milling the slide, I found these while dragging my magnet through the Brownell's catalog:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9217/avs|Style_1=Adjustable/avs|Make_3=1911/Product/REAR-SIGHTS

The sit low enough to use the existing standard front sight blade. Closest I've seen to the old MMC sights.

 

[David E]

If I had a Marlin 60 that was killed by a kinked spring that no gunsmith could fix, I'd send it back to Marlin.

But that's just me.

Obviously, when basic springs, like recoil springs, are replaced, if behooves the owner to install the right one AND do it correctly.

And as I said, I still want to shoot it afterwards.

 

[rozziboy18]

well im in the out crowd here! i have a kimber 1911, with a mag-well extended slide stop,cf grips edbrown trigger kit, ect,ect,ect.... it doesn't mean i don't have an appreciation for the classic look/ feel. it just means i like having a beautiful to me gun,one of the finest shooting guns i have shot to this day was a sa 1911 gi milspec. it was my first 45, my first 1911, and my first 3 inch group at 15 yards. bottom line is, not everyone buys pars to make them shoot better, some people just like to make them more ascetically pleasing to them.


all of this imho of course.

 

[Zach S]

1) I hate FLGRs, if it has one, I swap it out.

Springs are a maintenance item. Recoil springs have a life of about 4000 rounds, IIRC. If you hear a ca-CHUCK after the boom, its past time for a new one...

2) I don't bother changing my trigger, unless its too short. Like the flat MSH, a long trigger is part of "fitting" my pistol. Most of the aftermarket triggers have three holes. Personally, I don't care if it has three holes or is solid. I actually kinda like the long plastic triggers found in Colt 1991A1s.

Trigger jobs are far from uncommon in 1911s, and they usually involve replacing the sear and hammer with parts from a reputable manufacture, such as Ed Brown, Les Baer, STI, the list goes on.

Commander style hammers are just more common than spur hammers, which have bitten more than a few people. Spur hammers also wont work with beavertail grip safeties.

3) The extractor is a major part of the 1911, and one that's improperly tuned will lead to failures to feed or failures to extract. All four of my Kimbers have the stock extractors, one has well over 10k rounds through it. The extractor on my Para lasted about two range sessions, my Springer a little more... The second time I tune an extractor, I install and tune a replacement. Normally a Wilson Bulletproof, 1911Tuner thinks highly of the Ed Brown Hardcores, and based on his opinion, I'll likely use one next time I have to replace one.

4) I don't bother changing the slide stop, unless it needs replaced. I've never replaced one. Some folks prefer extended slide stops, but I never found the need.

5) I'm not familiar with adjustable sight options for the GI dovetail. Yost makes (made?) a nice fixed rear sight though.

6) As Dave says in the shotgun forum, buy ammo, use up, repeat (BA/UU/R, for short). More triggertime is always a plus. If you're willing to get a gunsmith involved, a triggerjob and fitted bbl bushing would probably help as well.

I understand what you mean about the simplicity. I got a used springer years ago for about $400 OTD, and before I took it home I swapped out the MSH and trigger (I don't like short triggers or arched MSHs), and installed some rubber Kimber grips. The extractor wouldn't stay tuned so I got another at some point.

I also bought a magwell, beavertail, extended safety, sights, and a few other parts, that I never installed. The more I shot it, the more I liked it as it was. Its the one gun I miss.

 

[NMGonzo]

Don't mess with it if it works.

Or do if that strikes your fancy.

Keep the parts, and if you want to go back to original just swap.

 

[David E]

Who said anything about a "kinked" spring?

You did in Post #40:

I slightly bent the ejector lifter spring and it has failed to eject correctly since that time.

"Bent," here, you used "kinked," earlier. Same spring problem either way.

I'd feel pretty foolish asking Marlin to fix a gun I've owned for 22 years and shot 150,000 rounds through.

I wouldn't.

If the gun in question has all the memories it does associated with it, gash and all, no replacement would have those same memories.

I would send it to Marlin for repair. But again, that's just me

 

[mavracer]

Do not just put "200 flawless rounds" through the gun and declare that it is "completely reliable." ... You may as well tell a race car driver that his car is good for that 500 mile race after you drive it around the parking lot once. You need to be able to fire 1000-1500 rounds through the gun without any malfunctions ... while evaluating the weapon for suitability.

Obviously spoken by somebody who is neither a mechanic or a gunsmith.
NASCAR crews take care assembling an engine make a couple dyno pulls and they're set asside for the race. If a 1911(or any thing else for that matter) is built in spec and put together right it'll run. If you run 200-500 rounds flawless it's silly to think 500-1000 will be less reliable than 4500-5000 at that level your going to be more likely to have fatigue.

 

[David E]

Seriously? You want to argue "kinked" or "bent?" LOL!

Does that change anything?

You screwed up a spring, the gun doesn't work, no gunsmith in the land can fix it according to you, so you're stuck with a gun that won't work, because [/i]you[/I]
screwed up a spring.

I simply said if it were my gun, I'd send it back to Marlin. (Then again, if it were my gun, I wouldn't have screwed up the spring so I wouldn't need to send it back)

 

[David E]

I didn't care what the word choice was, as the problem is still a spring you screwed up by "aggressive" cleaning.

You were the one running down the rabbit trail arguing word choice, as if that would change the screwed up spring problem.

Maybe contact Marlin for an owners manual and read the part about "proper maintenance."

To the OP, change out the recoil spring and firing pin spring every 5000 rds, whether it needs it or not. Happily, Wolfe Springs includes the FP spring with their recoil spring. Be sure and replace it with the proper spring, of course, and you'll be fine.

 

[Baba Louie]

...what would be a couple things to do to make my 25 and 50 yd groups a wee bit tighter for a 45 I love shooting?

Maybe... maybe, change out the bushing for a tighter match grade bushing, might improve front end lockup and improve groups a notch or percent or two... Maybe.

Usually after everything internal is set and worn by shooting a few hundred rounds, if your groups are aggly, I'd start fiddling there. (assuming trigger is fine, extractor is not clocking and is adjusted right, yada yada)

But you got the right attitude. Ain't broke, leave it as is. "Buy ammo. Use up. Repeat" (shotgun mantra)

 

[Onmilo]

This is my S&W 1911

All the stuff on the card is factory parts that I ended up replacing mostly with Ed Brown Hardcore and Smith and Alexander stuff.
Plus the gun had to go back to Smith and Wesson for a factory warranty recall,(a common theme with S&W any more.).
After doing all that work I finally got the gun to run flawlessly as well as print groups that were some of the tightest I have ever shot with a 1911.
I even replaced the factory sights with MMC tritiums.

Just the same, after all that tinkering, I lost my interest in the gun and sold it.

Sometimes too much fiddling will cause a shooter to lose his desire for the gun.

 

[HKGuns]

Hey that last cartridge in spare mag is loaded backwards. Are sure that grandpops style gun can handle JHPs?

I shoot all of my pictures with magazines with the last round in backwards. HK makes me do it for posterity. -Good eye.

"Grandpops style gun?"

Listen son, that "Grandpops" style pistol is in large measure a significant contributor to you being alive. If the Germans or Japanese had won the war they'd have invaded this Country and raped, pillaged and murdered here like they did in Poland and China. Thus there is a very good chance neither of us would be here.

Give it the respect it deserves and study your history.

Yes, it can shoot JHP's, which is why they are in the magazine.

 

[Nushif]

Listen son, that "Grandpops" style pistol is in large measure a significant contributor to you being alive. If the Germans or Japanese had won the war they'd have invaded this Country and raped, pillaged and murdered here like they did in Poland and China. Thus there is a very good chance neither of us would be here.

Sure ... Nothing to do with industrial capacity, logistics, or command doctrine.