A brand new cellular telephone, new atlases, fast food, and energy drinks OH MY

[Vernal45]

There's nothing that's going to stop a cop from searching your car if dryer sheets, coffee cans, McLunch, and maps constitute probable cause.

Bingo, that is the problem.

 

[Cellar Dweller]

Yesterday, I had a Double-Monster-Thickburger and an 20oz energy drink, a two-month-old cell phone, two road atlases (1993 and 1998) and ~30 pages of Mapquest directions in my work truck. It also contains hand and power tools. I work for a kitchen exhaust cleaning company that has contracts for restaurants and institutions.

Probable cause:
Assault-sized burger
Assault-sized energy drink
burglar tools (electrical, plumbing, general hand tools, three flashlights)
weapons (three multi-tools, box cutter, razor blades and scraper, two folding knives)
turn-by-turn directions to jails and hospitals (gov't facilities!)
cell phone, the choice of criminals (don't have ringtones though)
digital camera

I guess I better never get pulled over, eh? I must be a drugged-out burglarizing terrorist, it's not like I might need all this stuff to actually do my job...

 

[GunGoBoom]

The 4th Amendment has become meaningless in practice.

Well, sort of. It has become *almost* meaningless in your *vehicle*, because the search-incident-to-lawful-arrest rule gives them power to search the passenger comparment even if 'arresting' you for a speeding ticket or broken headlight, if I'm not mistaken, and even if not actually hauled off to jail. Could be wrong however. In your HOME, however, the 4th thankfully still has quite a bit of meaning. Just remembr that (a) you don't have to consent to a search - they need PC & a warrant then, (b) BUT, anyone else who lives in your household can give the cops consent to search your stuff, if the cops can convince them to so give consent.

 

[Cellar Dweller]

She informed me that the three indicators (the McFood, the map, and the driving-the-speed-limit) were enough to give her probable cause, so she was going to search my car without my consent.

So speeding is criminal activity and NOT speeding is an indicator of potential criminal activity. :banghead:

Guilty until proven guilty.

 

[BostonGeorge]

Just remembr that (a) you don't have to consent to a search - they need PC & a warrant then, (b) BUT, anyone else who lives in your household can give the cops consent to search your stuff, if the cops can convince them to so give consent.

This is an important point. We all need to make sure our families understand the consequences of seemingly innocent actions. Your children, parents, SO's, etc. should know, that although it may seem rude, if the police show up at your door to not invite them in. They would be more than happy, however, to speak outside. Once invited in it's just way too easy for an LEO to claim the found something in "plain sight." Police are also permitted, once in your home, to perform a "safety search," which includes opening closets, looking under beds and so forth. If the police are asking for consent, it's because they couldn't do whatever they're asking to do without permission.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

vernal45 wrote:

Those items can be found in about 95% of all vehicles. Does that mean when stopped you are under suspicion of a crime?

well, when you are stopped, you are under suspicion of committing a traffic offense. any cop who just pulls someone over and doesn't at least look for other violations, in my book, isn't a good cop. he's not proactive. traffic stops can lead to other offenses, but if you get all upset when the cops do their job how are they supposed to keep idiots off the streets?

that, in and of itself, is not suspicious. but couple that with his nervous behavior then your suspicions may be aroused.

the difference between an honest citizen and this crook is that he had a trunkload of marijuana.

i have nothing to hide from the police. i don't think they'd harass me on a routine traffic stop.

 

[BrokenPaw]

i have nothing to hide from the police. i don't think they'd harass me on a routine traffic stop.

Spreadfire, did you read my post? I didn't have anything to hide either (the throwing knives were legal, because of their blade length; I was just astounded that she didn't find them at all). She had no actual probable cause, and I had nothing to hide. But I spent 45 minutes on the side of the road with people gawking at me while she cast about looking for any pretext at all to rummage through my stuff.

Having been unable to find one, she rummaged through my stuff anyway.

-BP

 

[SMMAssociates]

...

I'm an old Rent-A-Cop. Emphasis on old....

Some of the best Police Work that's likely to happen is the result of a good hunch. (Forensics and informants, plus some occasional phenomenal luck, seem to cover the rest.)

The case under discussion shows me (IANAL) that the subject was acting in a suspicious manner, which justifies more serious scrutiny.

Devious behaviour on the subject's part may have delayed the consent form, too. (Refusing to sign may be suspicious behaviour all by itself even though it's a right.)

All of this seems to justify the dog search. End of story.... Bear in mind, too, that the dog "alerted" outside of the vehicle. The courts probably call this a search. I consider it a "nice doggie wants to walk around"....

('Course, the court didn't agree with me, but then again they didn't ask. Must have been that I'd not stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.... )

What's wrong with this picture (and has been well discussed) is when an Officer chooses to search for "a" and finds "b", which may be a technical issue instead of something like "possession for sale".... IOW, I don't like to see somebody jacked up during a traffic stop because the gun in the range bag has a magazine in the same pocket (illegal in OH) even though it's unloaded.

Notwithstanding whatever the kid left in my car the last time she borrowed it (which would kill her college tuition real fast) , I'm a regular at a local range, and there are always a couple hundred rounds of ammunition in the trunk. I had some surgery in late February that left me with a "don't lift more than 15#" limit. Since I was able to get out to the range anyway, I moved the usual load of ammunition to a second bag, and just carried them to the car separately. My range buddy was carrying that bag for me when we got to the range. For convenience, the ammunition bag now stays in the trunk if I don't need the space for something else. (I'm allowed to lift it now.)

On the "two guns makes an arsenal" basis, all that ammo has to result in some questions should the trunk be searched, even though carrying this stuff around is legal in OH. I would just as soon not have to justify that.

IAC, we're in a situation where any LEO or Prosecutor can ruin your day, to some extent because what is legal isn't necessarily PC anymore....

(Or it's election time.... :banghead: )

Regards,

 

[308win]

To his credit, he dug in with a will. Today I'd tell him no, but back then I figured if I had nothing to hide, why would I refuse a search?

Occasionally (and more frequently in some jurisdictions) police find things that weren't there before they looked. I wouldn't voluntarily allow them to search my vehicle, end of disscussion.

Not being an attorney the following question might be way off base: If they insisted on searching without permission using PC as the justification why couldn't one invoke one's 5th ammendment rights whether or not one had anything to hide?

 

[TheDutchman]

I was pulled over by the APD a few years ago for excessive noise(stereo was to loud) ,it being a stock stereo. the Officer the pulled my over asked for my license and insurance, but could not for the life of me find my new insurance card. I made the mistake of ask the officer was having a nice night, his response was " Why in the F@#k you asking". I responded to the officer that every time I get pulled over I ask if they are having a nice day or night. His response was "what are you a puke A#$ trouble maker get out of the car" and out I go to the ground. I did not consent to search of my Vehicle but they did anyway. The Sgt did not have anything to arrest more for and let me go with a ticket.

 

[scubie02]

the guy with the iroc is right on the money that certain cars make you a target. Years ago when I owned a Mustang, I was pulled over more times than with all the other vehicles I have owned combined, and often it was clear they were just fishing. I had cops look all over that car, in the wheel wells, and want to look in the trunk. In most cases they manufactured a reason to pull me over. On one memorable occasion I was home for the weekend and was pulled over in the middle of town on New Years eve. The cop's supposed reason was that there was a sign that said no right on red, and I had turned right on red. I politely pointed out that the sign actually said TRUCKS no right on red. This of course had no effect. As it happened, my father happened to be driving by, saw me pulled over, and turned around to come back to ask what was going on. The cop was semi hostile asking what he wanted, but upon him saying he was my father (mind you, I was in my mid to late 20's at the time, but once a dad always a dad) said I had turned right on red where there was a no right on red sign. I almost laughed out loud when my dad pointed out the signs says trucks no right on red. The cop at this point said right out that he really just pulled me over because it was a mustang and it was new years eve and he wanted to make sure I hadn't been drinking, and obviously I hadn't been so no harm no foul I could go.

Now sure, I wasn't on my way to a job interview I was now going to be late for or anything and to some degree it wasn't a big deal, but still, being pulled over for a fair amount of time, in the middle of a small town where now tongues would wag just because I drove a mustang...not really cool.

I now drive one of the new Legacy Gt turbos. Its actually faster than that old mustang was, but looks like your badic family car 4 dr sedan. Cops rarely even look my direction now. When the new mustang came out, I thought it was a hell of a good looking car, and considered tading in for one out of nostalgia, but then part of me thought how I'd probably just be a cop magnet again and that is a big deterrent. Pretty sad in a supposedly free country to have to feel that way.

As another aside, I routinely keep a coffee can in the back of my truck in the extended cab part. I live in a rural area where winters are severe, and use the truck especially for hunting, so I am in even MORE remote areas, often far from an actual road. Inside the can is a roll of toilet paper, and I also have a bottle or rubbing alcohol. Dump the alcohol over the toilet paper, light, and you have a heat source that can be used for hours in the event of being stranded. I have tons of other crap back there--multiple wool survival blankets, waders, various ammo, spares of anything I can think I might need. Sadly, after all this crap I read, I am a little nervous having the damn coffee can in there...

 

[Henry Bowman]

Dutchman -- But did he ever answer your question???

 

[GT]

SO, its ok, for a LEO to jack with you, want to search, call a dog out all because you have a new cell phone, an atlas, an energy drink and food wrappers in your car? Each one of us has 1 or all of these items in our vehicles. Does that mean we are all under suspicion? That is the point of this.

I understand the point.

You obviously don't understand mine, or you didn't read the ruling thoroughly.

He stopped the guy for a traffic stop, perhaps because of the out of state plates on a rental car; maybe it was stolen.
The cell phone, atlas and stuff made the cop want to look further.
The fact that the guy was freaking out made him want to look further still.
The fact that he was making a 3000 plus mile run for a 2 day trip in a car rented hundreds of miles from his home made him want to look even further.
The fact that the guy suddenly lost the ability to speak English was probably the clincher.

But yeah, too late, justice served etc.

If you want to legalize marijuana then fine that's good. But don't take three things out of context in a ruling and yell police state.

I know it's fashionable here to hate the police but let's try a little harder to find real evidence before we condemn them all.

G

 

[CentralTexas]

I think I am

(Art's Grammaw struck again...)

 

[Denko]

I don't think anyone here condemns all the police.Many of us have had to deal with some real jerks wearing a badge.It would be good if the good cops did some proactive policing and got rid of the jerks.Cops should follow the law.I was driving down the road in my white CHEVROLET truck when I was pulled over.When the LEO came up to the window he stated"We have a report of a stolen white FORD truck".I told him it was a CHEVY.Then he said"I just wanted to see who you were" Am I supposed to respect this guy?? Or all the similar bull???? stops(with bull???? attitudes) that I have experienced.

 

[SMMAssociates]

I don't think anyone here condemns all the police. Many of us have had to deal with some real jerks wearing a badge.It would be good if the good cops did some proactive policing and got rid of the jerks.

Denko:

Not the worst idea anybody's ever had, and it varies by department and geographical location. "Back East" a cop has to commit murder to get arrested. 'Course there are "Internal Affairs" functions in most departments that will usually deal with stuff like that. What won't happen is a traffic ticket for an LEO from out of town....

Elsewhere, heading West, the chances of getting a ticket or, for that matter, getting jammed up on a "Concealed Carry" problem, increase as you get closer to California. My warp drive is out of service, so I'm not sure what happens in CA.... I probably wouldn't like it....

Cops should follow the law. I was driving down the road in my white CHEVROLET truck when I was pulled over. When the LEO came up to the window he stated"We have a report of a stolen white FORD truck". I told him it was a CHEVY.Then he said"I just wanted to see who you were"

For better or worse, and my own view is "better" (sorry), LEO's often do "pretext" stops on the hunch that things aren't what they seem. Usually, if there's nothing much going on, you'll be detained for a couple minutes, and that's that. Make a problem out of it, or have contraband on board, though, and you may regret it.

The other reason for the stop you mentioned may be due to the theft not being "official" yet. People don't always tell the truth. Not necessarily intentionally.... Grandma Bluehair may call in to say that some no-account just stole her Ford, and when an Officer arrives to do the paperwork, produce the registration for a gray Honda.... Meantime, the original "Ford" has been broadcast as an "unofficial stolen" and you go by....

(Some years ago I was in a minor dispute with my favorite car dealer. I sent my lawyer a draft of a letter I was considering sending the dealer. "Bert - have a look at this and tell me what you think about it." He had his secretary type it up on his letterhead, with a little editing. Ever have a Cadillac Town Car? OK, he was 86 then, but the folks at the Lincoln dealership got the message. Genuine Lawer with years of experience....)

Am I supposed to respect this guy?? Or all the similar bull???? stops(with bull???? attitudes) that I have experienced.

Respect everything but bad attitude. If the latter, talk to a lawyer, or at least to the Officer's supervisor. Many PD's are using in-car cameras. Things will not bode well for them if the tape doesn't exist....

(Never argue with an LEO. Especially when he's right.... )