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A discourse on No-Knock Warrant reform?
- Thread starter atek3
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Seriously though, I believe that the folks on here have good intentions and that if you could see how it is done first hand or actually do it yourself, your eyes would be opened and you woud say something along the lines of "WOW, he had a point" but short of that it is hard to grasp the concept of standing on someone's front porch for 30 seconds while you wait on them to grab their tec-9 and start sending bullets through the wall like the did to a few Memphis PD officers that decided not to use a no knock warrant.
This is what happens when you fail to use a no knock, the suspect had time to grab a gun and hide in the closet waiting for the police. The served a warrant when the suspect was awake and the knocked and announced. Guess what? He chose to get a gun and try to kill the police...Hmmmmm:
Rapper draws felony in deputy shooting
By Chris Conley
Contact
April 2, 2004
A New Orleans-based rap artist, charged with attempted murder of a Shelby County sheriff's deputy, remained in jail late Thursday, despite a reduced bond.
Rapper Tab 'Turk' Virgil will likely remain in jail for at least several more days because of new federal charges, officials said Thursday.
Virgil is charged in state court with attempted second-degree murder. The deputy was shot on Jan. 26 while serving a search warrant in a Hickory Hill apartment where Virgil was staying.
SWAT team officer Chris Harris was critically injured after being shot four times.
Virgil, through his attorneys, said he acted in self-defense because he thought he was being robbed by home invaders.
A General Sessions Criminal Court judge on Wednesday knocked the charges down from attempted first-degree murder and lowered Virgil's bond from $750,000 to $150,000.
But a federal grand jury indicted Virgil late Wednesday on a charge of being a felon in possession of a handgun, and a warrant was issued for his arrest.
Federal authorities have placed a detainer on Virgil. If he posts bail, he will be held for U.S. Marshals, who will take him into custody.
Local prosecutors have said Virgil, who was convicted on a felony heroin possession case in Louisiana, violated the terms of his release in that state when he came to Memphis earlier this year.
This is what happens when you fail to use a no knock, the suspect had time to grab a gun and hide in the closet waiting for the police. The served a warrant when the suspect was awake and the knocked and announced. Guess what? He chose to get a gun and try to kill the police...Hmmmmm:
Rapper draws felony in deputy shooting
By Chris Conley
Contact
April 2, 2004
A New Orleans-based rap artist, charged with attempted murder of a Shelby County sheriff's deputy, remained in jail late Thursday, despite a reduced bond.
Rapper Tab 'Turk' Virgil will likely remain in jail for at least several more days because of new federal charges, officials said Thursday.
Virgil is charged in state court with attempted second-degree murder. The deputy was shot on Jan. 26 while serving a search warrant in a Hickory Hill apartment where Virgil was staying.
SWAT team officer Chris Harris was critically injured after being shot four times.
Virgil, through his attorneys, said he acted in self-defense because he thought he was being robbed by home invaders.
A General Sessions Criminal Court judge on Wednesday knocked the charges down from attempted first-degree murder and lowered Virgil's bond from $750,000 to $150,000.
But a federal grand jury indicted Virgil late Wednesday on a charge of being a felon in possession of a handgun, and a warrant was issued for his arrest.
Federal authorities have placed a detainer on Virgil. If he posts bail, he will be held for U.S. Marshals, who will take him into custody.
Local prosecutors have said Virgil, who was convicted on a felony heroin possession case in Louisiana, violated the terms of his release in that state when he came to Memphis earlier this year.
And on a side note about our fine upstanding rap artist:
Deputy shootings led to bribe case
By Chris Conley
Contact
March 3, 2004
The federal bribery case against a Memphis lawyer and his street gang associates grew out of the investigation into the shooting of two Shelby County Sheriff's deputies serving a drug warrant, agents told a judge Tuesday.
Lawyer Scott Crawford, 34, was charged Monday in a conspiracy to bribe a Memphis police officer, posing as a crooked cop, to fix cases. One case involved New Orleans rap singer Tab 'Turk' Virgil, charged with shooting a deputy on Jan. 26.
Also charged in the bribery conspiracy are Jeffrey Holliday, identified as former "overseer" of the Gangster Disciples, and Eric Holley, the accused local head of the Vice Lords.
The charges also include possession of crack cocaine and a pistol with an obliterated serial number, items that were allegedly to be used to incriminate a gang rival of Holliday's.
Federal prosecutors, in a hearing before U.S. Magistrate Judge Diane Vescovo, sought to have Crawford held without bond, saying he was a flight risk.
Memphis police officer Paul Sherman, who is assigned to the DEA task force, testified that after the deputies were shot he interviewed the confidential informant whose information led to the raid. During questioning, the informant asked, "Is my thug attorney going to know about this," referring to Crawford, Sherman testified.
The informant said Crawford had told him the names of two men who were informants in the federal investigation into massive thefts of drugs and money from the Memphis police property and evidence room.
"He was afraid it would get back (through Crawford to gang members) and he would be shot," Sherman said.
Several former civilian employees of the department and several alleged drug dealers have been indicted in the property-room case.
Testimony did not make it clear how, or if, the bribery and the property-room cases may be related.
But the investigation of Crawford began days after Sherman questioned the informant.
FBI special agent Deanna Chapman read from a written confession made by Crawford after his arrest Sunday. In it, Crawford detailed his connections to Holliday and local gangs.
Holliday had referred about 75 cases involving Gangster Disciples to him and was a close friend and bodyguard, Crawford told investigators.
The confession detailed how Crawford and Holliday approached Memphis police Lt. Jeff Clark, asking him to set up the gang rival - referred to as "6-9" - with half an ounce of crack cocaine and the illegal pistol.
Clark taped Crawford discussing cases he wanted fixed, the case against Virgil, and a gun case against Holley. Several tapes were played in court.
Following the testimony, Vescovo set bond at $10,000. Crawford also must wear an electronic bracelet.
- Chris Conley: 529-2595
Deputy shootings led to bribe case
By Chris Conley
Contact
March 3, 2004
The federal bribery case against a Memphis lawyer and his street gang associates grew out of the investigation into the shooting of two Shelby County Sheriff's deputies serving a drug warrant, agents told a judge Tuesday.
Lawyer Scott Crawford, 34, was charged Monday in a conspiracy to bribe a Memphis police officer, posing as a crooked cop, to fix cases. One case involved New Orleans rap singer Tab 'Turk' Virgil, charged with shooting a deputy on Jan. 26.
Also charged in the bribery conspiracy are Jeffrey Holliday, identified as former "overseer" of the Gangster Disciples, and Eric Holley, the accused local head of the Vice Lords.
The charges also include possession of crack cocaine and a pistol with an obliterated serial number, items that were allegedly to be used to incriminate a gang rival of Holliday's.
Federal prosecutors, in a hearing before U.S. Magistrate Judge Diane Vescovo, sought to have Crawford held without bond, saying he was a flight risk.
Memphis police officer Paul Sherman, who is assigned to the DEA task force, testified that after the deputies were shot he interviewed the confidential informant whose information led to the raid. During questioning, the informant asked, "Is my thug attorney going to know about this," referring to Crawford, Sherman testified.
The informant said Crawford had told him the names of two men who were informants in the federal investigation into massive thefts of drugs and money from the Memphis police property and evidence room.
"He was afraid it would get back (through Crawford to gang members) and he would be shot," Sherman said.
Several former civilian employees of the department and several alleged drug dealers have been indicted in the property-room case.
Testimony did not make it clear how, or if, the bribery and the property-room cases may be related.
But the investigation of Crawford began days after Sherman questioned the informant.
FBI special agent Deanna Chapman read from a written confession made by Crawford after his arrest Sunday. In it, Crawford detailed his connections to Holliday and local gangs.
Holliday had referred about 75 cases involving Gangster Disciples to him and was a close friend and bodyguard, Crawford told investigators.
The confession detailed how Crawford and Holliday approached Memphis police Lt. Jeff Clark, asking him to set up the gang rival - referred to as "6-9" - with half an ounce of crack cocaine and the illegal pistol.
Clark taped Crawford discussing cases he wanted fixed, the case against Virgil, and a gun case against Holley. Several tapes were played in court.
Following the testimony, Vescovo set bond at $10,000. Crawford also must wear an electronic bracelet.
- Chris Conley: 529-2595
And yet another example of why it is a BAD idea to knock and announce on a high risk warrant. And just think, it wasn't even the evil black clad SWAT team...
2 police officers shot
1 critically injured serving warrant
By Bill Dries
Contact
January 23, 2004
Two police officers were shot and wounded, one critically, while serving a search warrant Thursday evening in the Bethel Grove area of South Memphis.
The officers with the Vice & Narcotics Unit were looking for drugs, at 2635 Lowell Ave. shortly after 9 p.m.
"After announcing themselves at the front door and getting no response, they did attempt to force entry into the residence. A suspect inside fired about five shots," said police Major Lawrence Jamison.
Police radio reports indicated the shots were fired through the front door.
The officers did not return fire, Jamison said. Investigators later recovered the gun they believe was used to shoot both officers.
Officer Myron Fair, an 11-year veteran of the police force, was in critical but stable condition early today in the Intensive Care Unit at the Regional Medical Center at Memphis after undergoing surgery.
Fair was shot in the stomach, but police said the bullet was deflected by the protective vest he was wearing.
The ambulance carrying Fair was escorted to The Med by dozens of police cars as other police cars blocked intersections along the route to the hospital. Police Director James Bolden and Mayor Willie Herenton arrived at the emergency room shortly after the ambulance.
The second wounded officer, Kadir Smith, was "grazed" in the left arm by a bullet, Jamison said. He was treated at The Med and released Thursday evening.
Smith went to the hospital in the same ambulance with an unidentified handcuffed man taken from the house who had bruises and cuts on his face.
There were also two children and a woman in the house at the time of the shooting who were not considered suspects late Thursday, Jamison said.
As neighbors gathered in the street just off Lamar near Kimball, police technicians worked behind yellow crime scene tape on the front porch of the white two-story house.
The front door is at the end of a long well-lit porch with several windows looking onto the concrete porch.
After the gunfire, there was a tense seven-minute delay before officers told dispatchers that the situation was under control and they were inside the house and had the man who allegedly shot the officers in custody.
Jamison said a group of six to 10 officers are usually involved in serving such warrants.
Most warrants are served without incident. But the duty is anything but routine.
Shelby County Sheriff's Deputy George Selby was shot and killed in December 2002 as he and other deputies served a drug search warrant in Frayser.
He was wearing a protective vest, but he was shot near the right armpit in an area not covered by the vest.
Reginald Rome, who lived at the house, is charged with first-degree murder in that case.
The officers wounded Thursday in Bethel Grove are the third and fourth officers shot since late August.
Officer Anthony Woods was killed responding to a domestic violence call in the Parkway Village Apartments in East Memphis on Aug. 27.
Alreco Ayers, 25, shot Woods four times then turned the gun on himself and was dead when other officers arrived.
Tim Brown, a Memphis police officer working off-duty but in his police uniform as a security guard at the Kroger supermarket on Winchester near Hacks Cross Road, was shot at the store on Dec. 10.
One of a group robbers shot him at point blank range in the chest and hand. He survived and police have charged five men with the robbery and shooting
2 police officers shot
1 critically injured serving warrant
By Bill Dries
Contact
January 23, 2004
Two police officers were shot and wounded, one critically, while serving a search warrant Thursday evening in the Bethel Grove area of South Memphis.
The officers with the Vice & Narcotics Unit were looking for drugs, at 2635 Lowell Ave. shortly after 9 p.m.
"After announcing themselves at the front door and getting no response, they did attempt to force entry into the residence. A suspect inside fired about five shots," said police Major Lawrence Jamison.
Police radio reports indicated the shots were fired through the front door.
The officers did not return fire, Jamison said. Investigators later recovered the gun they believe was used to shoot both officers.
Officer Myron Fair, an 11-year veteran of the police force, was in critical but stable condition early today in the Intensive Care Unit at the Regional Medical Center at Memphis after undergoing surgery.
Fair was shot in the stomach, but police said the bullet was deflected by the protective vest he was wearing.
The ambulance carrying Fair was escorted to The Med by dozens of police cars as other police cars blocked intersections along the route to the hospital. Police Director James Bolden and Mayor Willie Herenton arrived at the emergency room shortly after the ambulance.
The second wounded officer, Kadir Smith, was "grazed" in the left arm by a bullet, Jamison said. He was treated at The Med and released Thursday evening.
Smith went to the hospital in the same ambulance with an unidentified handcuffed man taken from the house who had bruises and cuts on his face.
There were also two children and a woman in the house at the time of the shooting who were not considered suspects late Thursday, Jamison said.
As neighbors gathered in the street just off Lamar near Kimball, police technicians worked behind yellow crime scene tape on the front porch of the white two-story house.
The front door is at the end of a long well-lit porch with several windows looking onto the concrete porch.
After the gunfire, there was a tense seven-minute delay before officers told dispatchers that the situation was under control and they were inside the house and had the man who allegedly shot the officers in custody.
Jamison said a group of six to 10 officers are usually involved in serving such warrants.
Most warrants are served without incident. But the duty is anything but routine.
Shelby County Sheriff's Deputy George Selby was shot and killed in December 2002 as he and other deputies served a drug search warrant in Frayser.
He was wearing a protective vest, but he was shot near the right armpit in an area not covered by the vest.
Reginald Rome, who lived at the house, is charged with first-degree murder in that case.
The officers wounded Thursday in Bethel Grove are the third and fourth officers shot since late August.
Officer Anthony Woods was killed responding to a domestic violence call in the Parkway Village Apartments in East Memphis on Aug. 27.
Alreco Ayers, 25, shot Woods four times then turned the gun on himself and was dead when other officers arrived.
Tim Brown, a Memphis police officer working off-duty but in his police uniform as a security guard at the Kroger supermarket on Winchester near Hacks Cross Road, was shot at the store on Dec. 10.
One of a group robbers shot him at point blank range in the chest and hand. He survived and police have charged five men with the robbery and shooting
OP
OP
atek3
Member
one difference is, the LEO outside a home waiting to execute a lawful search warrant is wearing soft body armor, is expecting trouble, and will most likely survive an attack. On the other hand, the recipients of a bogus 4 am no-knock raid are usually naked or dressed in skivvies (not NIJ lvl IIa rated) and most likely won't survive, or will be seriously disabled.
atek3
atek3
I don't know man, My vest only covers part of my upper torso and it is a Second Chance version, so it may not even work.... Body armor is not bullet proof, it is somewhat bullet resistant. On top of that there are head shots, pelvic shots...etc. I have actually even seen some criminals that wore vests...you'd be amazed at the things you find during a search warrant, dildos, porn, body armor, dope, police scanners...it just goes on and on.
Zak Smith
Member
It isn't a question of "not believing".
By design, no-knock warrants intend to surprise their victims when they are most vulnerable and in "condition white" They further attempt to confuse and disorient them with explosives and other devices such as 120 lumen lights to make accurate perception and judgement by the victim impossible. This fact alone refutes the inevitable reply that the victims should be able to recognize their assailents as agents of the state and comply. There is no time.
EDIT: I realize the point you made about "how they got there", and for this reason I am against tactics in which the, err, "suspect" has no time to ascertain the identity of his assailents.
You miss the essential Catch-22 of the innocent but prepared homeowner. He has no reason to believe it is the police, so concludes it must be criminals. What's going to happen is that he'll be startled from sleep, hear apparent gunshots (the front door being bashed in, and/or multiple flashbangs), hear people coming in, and start his "home defense" plan. Since he is disoriented, he will not be able to positively ID the police. He will start firing in legitimate self-defense and either he will die shortly, or he will realize the horrible reality of the situation-- not "his mistake", it was the police's mistake -- and attempt to surrender.
I am certainly not arguing for firing on police. The situation is a lethal Catch-22 for any innocent homeowner, who won't have time to make an accurate determination.
-z
Combat-wombat
Member
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Zak Smith- Exactly. We won't know it's cops, especially when it's 4:00 in the morning and our door gets bashed in and flashbangs are deployed, with a team of men in ninja outfits shouting and running into the house. I know that if I was ever confronted with that situation and had a gun accessible to me, I would shoot.
I don't care if it's too hard to read the house numbers or determine what house it is, it's your job to make 110 percent sure that you have the right one. If you can't do it, it's time to find another system, you can't risk innocent lives because it was "too hard" to find the right house.
It's not about officer safety- police officers are supposed to protect civilians, even if it involves risk to them. Officer safety is extremely important, it's just second to making sure you don't invade an innocent family's home at 4 in the morning and end with the homeowner shooting back at you, and you shooting back at the homeowner in front of his wife and children.
I don't care if it's too hard to read the house numbers or determine what house it is, it's your job to make 110 percent sure that you have the right one. If you can't do it, it's time to find another system, you can't risk innocent lives because it was "too hard" to find the right house.
It's not about officer safety- police officers are supposed to protect civilians, even if it involves risk to them. Officer safety is extremely important, it's just second to making sure you don't invade an innocent family's home at 4 in the morning and end with the homeowner shooting back at you, and you shooting back at the homeowner in front of his wife and children.
Zak Smith
Member
FedDC,
Anyone threatening me with grave bodily injury or death is an immediate threat to be defended against. In a disoriented state under extreme time pressure and stress, it is likely one could be able to ascertain that (a violent attack is occuring), but be unable to read the fine print on their uniforms. Also please note that there have been numberous cases of career criminals dressing up in SWAT-type gear and doing home invasions.
If you want this allowance, then you can surely understand the difficulty in positively ID'ing assailents as they shoot at me coming into my house.
-z
Anyone threatening me with grave bodily injury or death is an immediate threat to be defended against. In a disoriented state under extreme time pressure and stress, it is likely one could be able to ascertain that (a violent attack is occuring), but be unable to read the fine print on their uniforms. Also please note that there have been numberous cases of career criminals dressing up in SWAT-type gear and doing home invasions.
If you want this allowance, then you can surely understand the difficulty in positively ID'ing assailents as they shoot at me coming into my house.
-z
FedDC- ascertain a target? So if I hear explosions at 4am coming from the living room and harshly barked orders sounding like gorilla grunts converging rapidly on my position, am I allowed to reasonably expect they are a violent threat? Or maybe the responsible gentlemen are just stopping by for tea and crumpets? A law-abiding homeowner has no reason to expect anybody crashing through his house in the middle of the night, and in several states may legally shoot as soon as his sights are aligned.
Daniel T
Member
FedDC:
Actually, that seems perfectly ok to you when cops do it, as evidenced by your comments in this thread.
You know, you do your fellow LEOs a disservice when you act as arrogant and dismissive as you have been. Fortunately, I believe most cops aren't like you.
Actually, that seems perfectly ok to you when cops do it, as evidenced by your comments in this thread.
You know, you do your fellow LEOs a disservice when you act as arrogant and dismissive as you have been. Fortunately, I believe most cops aren't like you.
AgaveHound
Member
FedDC, I've thought about this many times and because of my family's past...Yes I'd shoot. No if's ands or buts about it. If I detect an intruder in my home I HAVE to assume they mean me or my family harm. As stated by others earlier in this thread, if a person is not a criminal, why would they even begin to think that they would be the target of a no-knock warrant?
I don't know you nor after reading this reply do I think I want to. Taking the life of an innocent is a mistake? Yeah it's a mistake, too big of a mistake to allow. I don't consider taking the life of an innocent lightly as you implied above. And yes, if a 'valuable tool' can result in the death of an innocent, it should be done away with and those that believe it should be used because it is a 'valuable tool' are propagating the type of society that I would fight against and die to defeat. I fear that all too soon those JBT types are going to go too far...
CannibalCrowley
Member
Many people, such as myself, believe that no knock raids are too dangerous to be allowed to continue. Others think they're a valuable tool and write off innocent deaths as simple mistakes. If these raids are kept in place I would suggest federal regulation and automatic felonies and job less for those who violate said regulations. If you aren't confident enough in the search to risk your future, why should you be allowed to risk the future of others?
Even when one of the mistakes is the death of your nephew? If yes, fine. If no, why is it okay when the mistake kills someone unknown to you, but unreasonable when it's someone in your family?
Big deal, a lot of people have those items in their homes.
So after all those months the officers still can't find the house and they blame it on house numbers.
In other words, you've already decided that you're going to kick in the door instead of waiting for the occupant to enter. BTW some states have statutues which require a longer waiting period (depending on the time of the day) before forcing entry.
ksnecktieman
Member
I do not know enough to argue on this thread, I know what I will do. What I would like to do is ask you, feddc????? Your buddies were over for a bbq and you had a few beers on a saturday night, maybe more than a few. You awaken at four am on sunday to the sound of your front door being smashed. ...... .... What will YOU do?
Thank you for your answer.
Thank you for your answer.
No Personal Attacks.
There are easier ways to stop coming to The High Road, if you are that damned desperate to leave.
However, if you are wanting to strike THR from your list of social activities, you have just found an effective way to get it done.
Three single words: No. Personal. Attacks.
Are those three words that difficult to understand? Truly? Does it require some sort of advanced Zen training to squeeze Don't insult another Forum Member out of No personal attacks?
It's not as if we're using Latin phraseology. We purposely avoided the cumbersome, "No ad hominem attacks" in an effort to avoid confusion, but no-oooo.
So. Tell me. Can you not wrap your minds around the concept that we don't want you to insult another Member, or are you flaunting your breaking of Forum rules just for the sheer hell of it?
Is that it? Do you think that you have a God-given right to do whatever you please on someone elses property, and to hell with the wishes of the owner of that property?
I'm here to tell you that you are sadly mistaken.
Now.
Reach down, take a firm grip on both ears and tug until you see daylight, because I don't want anything to interfere with the clarity of the next statement.
If you can't abide by Forum Rules, we will kick your ass off of this Forum.
If there is anything about that last statement that is less than clear, you'd best find yourself someone to break it down for you, because I will take the next knee-biting, back-stabbing, insult-slinger that I catch; nail his tripes to a tree, then I will proceed to chase him around said tree until I effect a sudden cure for his cranio-rectal insertion.
KNOCK IT THE HELL OFF!
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