A discrepancy

[dracphelan]

I'm loadin 30-06 shells. I'm using speer 110gr jacketed hollow points, IMR 3031 powder, CCI primers and Remington nickelplated cases. I have not fired any that I've loaded so far. Speer's manual states that I should be using a 42.5 grain (edit: 42.5 grains to 46.5 grains) charge to start. Both the Lee manual, and IMR say I should be starting at 51 grains for IMR 3031 and 110 grains bullets. Who should I go with?
BTW, my bullet puller and electronic scale arrive tomorrow. I love Midway

 

[Sunray]

My old Lyman book gives 47.0 to 52.0 for a 110 grain jacketed bullet and IMR3031. I trust my Lyman book over any other manual.

 

[jerkface11]

My old Lyman book gives 47.0 to 52.0 for a 110 grain jacketed bullet and IMR3031. I trust my Lyman book over any other manual.

I don't fully trust my lyman book anymore. The start load they give for a 300 grain bullet in .45-70 with IMR 3031 is TEN full grains lower than anyone elses. I didn't know that at the time as it was the only manual i had. But i figured it out when the bullet got stuck about halfway down the barrel Who knows maybe i stumbled on the only typo in the manual.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Oh. Trust the Lyman load manual Dracphelan...You're not loading for a .45-70. You're loading a .30-06... My new Lyman 48th edition confirms what Sunray says...Go for it...

 

[MNgoldenbear]

I don't fully trust my lyman book anymore. The start load they give for a 300 grain bullet in .45-70 with IMR 3031 is TEN full grains lower than anyone elses. I didn't know that at the time as it was the only manual i had. But i figured it out when the bullet got stuck about halfway down the barrel Who knows maybe i stumbled on the only typo in the manual.

Hmm. I just checked my Lyman (48th) and Sierra (4th). Lyman shows 45.5 to 48.0 grains IMR3031 with a 300 grain jacketed. The Sierra shows three ranges for different classes of actions: 38.4 to 43.5, 42.8 to 49.2, and 56.0 to 60.0. Other than the loads for the heavy actions, they look pretty comparable to me.

 

[The Bushmaster]

MNgoldenbear got side tracked again...I apologize for him Dracphelan...

45-70...Depends whether you are loading for 1886 Winchesters and 1895 Marlins OR Rugers No.1 and No.3...There is a very distinct difference in these rifles...Then there the "handguns" (T/C) for this calibre....................

 

[MNgoldenbear]

Uh, yeah, Bushmaster. I thought that's what I was pointing out. (That perhaps the Lyman load seemed light compared to the loads for the heavier duty actions listed in other manuals.)

 

[MNgoldenbear]

dracphelan - quick note. Just looked in my Speer #12. The loads for the 110 JHP (as opposed to the more traditional designs in that weight - for which, strangely, there is no recommended load of IMR 3031) note that the bullet is to be kept under 2900 fps (light constuction?). The other manuals and the other entries in the Speer manual are for normal constuction bullets, with velocities up to about 450 fps faster than recommended for the 110 Varminter (JHP). Not sure how the 110 Varminter will holdup at high velocity, but I tried running some of their 50 grain TNTs out of a 1-7" AR an it was 'educational'. The bullets spun apart within about 10-15 yards of the muzzle. Tried sighting them in at 200 yards, then 100 - still no hits. Tried 25 yards without hitting! Just then, an old timer walked by and mentioned how smoky my loads were. Puzzled, I asked him where he saw the smoke, and he indicated 10-15 yards downrange. I finally found a couple of empty bullet jackets embedded in the 25 yard target face.

Anyway, I'm guessing that lighter construction is the reason for the lower recommended loads for that particular bullet in the Speer manual.

 

[P-32]

I agree with the above poster and checked my Speer 10. I found it also said to keep the 110 gr. 30 cal. bullet under 2900 FPS. (Used the same load data as already posted)

I've found the Speer loads to be pretty close in real life as Speer normally uses a real firearm in load devolpment, unlike many of the others, including Lyman.

 

[jerkface11]

Hmm. I just checked my Lyman (48th) and Sierra (4th). Lyman shows 45.5 to 48.0 grains IMR3031 with a 300 grain jacketed. The Sierra shows three ranges for different classes of actions: 38.4 to 43.5, 42.8 to 49.2, and 56.0 to 60.0. Other than the loads for the heavy actions, they look pretty comparable to me.

The marlin loads in the lyman book are 10 grains under the lyman loads in my other manuals. The proof was in the bullets that refused to come out of the muzzel.

 

[deadin]

The marlin loads in the lyman book are 10 grains under the lyman loads in my other manuals. The proof was in the bullets that refused to come out of the muzzel.

How about a little more information. Like which Lyman book? What is the starting load of 3031 you are talking about? (10 grains under someother unnamed manual really doesn't tell us much)
As for "the bullets refused to come out of the muzzle", sounds more like there was no powder, not "10 grains less" (or defective powder). Even a squib load will clear the barrel. All that gas has to go somewhere.

Dean

 

[jerkface11]

How about a little more information. Like which Lyman book? What is the starting load of 3031 you are talking about? (10 grains under someother unnamed manual really doesn't tell us much)
As for "the bullets refused to come out of the muzzle", sounds more like there was no powder, not "10 grains less" (or defective powder). Even a squib load will clear the barrel. All that gas has to go somewhere.

Dean

Yes it was the starting load. I'm not sure which edition lyman manual it was. And yes they had powder. There just wasn't enough powder for it to all ignite. When i bumped the load up a few grains they went off every time.

 

[deadin]

Why can't you just give an answer to the question asked. How much powder was in the load that was "10 grains less" than other starting loads.

BTW, It would take an overcharge of a slow burning powder to "not all ignite" before the bullet clears the barrel. Undercharges can detonate which will blow up your gun.
If what you are claiming is true, then you've got some defective powder, or some really bad loading practices like sizing lube in the cases, not letting the cases dry after washing, etc. (all contribute to defective powder.)

 

[jerkface11]

Why can't you just give an answer to the question asked. How much powder was in the load that was "10 grains less" than other starting loads.

BTW, It would take an overcharge of a slow burning powder to "not all ignite" before the bullet clears the barrel. Undercharges can detonate which will blow up your gun.
If what you are claiming is true, then you've got some defective powder, or some really bad loading practices like sizing lube in the cases, not letting the cases dry after washing, etc. (all contribute to defective powder.)

It was a load of 43 grains of IMR 3031. And yes a low pressure load of a rifle powder will not all ignite. This load is from the 47th edition.

 

[deadin]

I think you had better check your powder and primers. 43Gr. 3031 behind a 300gr jacketed bullet is a standard load for Trapdoor Springfields. I've confirmed this from three different sources. I've been shooting 40gr of 3031 behind a 405gr cast and 42.5gr of 3031 behind a 300gr JHP for years and have never had any problems. These are not high power loads by any means but my Ruger #1 likes them and shoots nice tight 100yd groups.

Dean

 

[jerkface11]

I think you had better check your powder and primers. 43Gr. 3031 behind a 300gr jacketed bullet is a standard load for Trapdoor Springfields. I've confirmed this from three different sources. I've been shooting 40gr of 3031 behind a 405gr cast and 42.5gr of 3031 behind a 300gr JHP for years and have never had any problems. These are not high power loads by any means but my Ruger #1 likes them and shoots nice tight 100yd groups.

Dean

The powder and primers worked great with every other load. Just not that one. I used the entire can of powder with other loadings. The only ones that failed to fire were the .45-70 loads. Which leads me to believe the LOAD was wrong. Not my loading practices not my primers and not my powder.

 

[jerkface11]

Hmm. I just checked my Lyman (48th) and Sierra (4th). Lyman shows 45.5 to 48.0 grains IMR3031 with a 300 grain jacketed. The Sierra shows three ranges for different classes of actions: 38.4 to 43.5, 42.8 to 49.2, and 56.0 to 60.0. Other than the loads for the heavy actions, they look pretty comparable to me.

My 47th showed 43 grains with a 300 grain bullet. It's unlike a loading manual to UP a load for no reason. Unless of course there was a problem with it in the first place.

 

[MNgoldenbear]

My 47th showed 43 grains with a 300 grain bullet. It's unlike a loading manual to UP a load for no reason. Unless of course there was a problem with it in the first place.

I agree, to a point. I also think it's unusual for a manual to change a load for an existing powder, unless the components specified (powder lot, primer, brass, bullet make/design/material, test gun, etc.) were different than the last time they established data for the cartridge. That said, I don't know if they used all the same components in both editions. (Can't find my old 47th. Dang it, ya even made me look. ) Still seems strange that you'd stick a bullet with a load that Sierra lists as near max for Springfields and at least starting for the 1886. My understanding of why the loads are so much higher for the 1895 is not that it needs so much more powder, but since it can handle higher pressures, they start it out higher. Following what you're saying, it seems as though a load for an old Trapdoor would stick in your gun every time. Given that Sierra gives loads all the way down to 38.4, and they're usually pretty reliable, I just don't see how the 43 grain charge, in and of itself, could have been responsible for your stuck bullet. Granted, if it happened to me, I don't think I'd be really anxious to try it again. As it seems your gun is suited to the higher pressure loads, you have no real need to go that low anyway. I'm not saying you necessarily did anything "wrong". Sometimes odd things happen. Anyway, hope you don't run into any more frustrations. I stuck two bullets in the forcing cone of a revolver at a match, so I know having it happen is annoying/scary/frustrating and getting them out is a PITA. (Separate strings of fire; quit after the second one -- found out I'd distracted myself while loading (single-stage!) and failed to charge an entire row in a loading block, as I found 3 more rounds under-weight by the value of the powder charge in the boxes I'd loaded. Grrr! )

 

[jerkface11]

I think the lighter charges just require a wad and lyman omitted the little curly que thing they use to show that.