A few .45 a.c.p. questions

[MikePGS]

As some of you may have noticed, I've recently become quite curious about .45 a.c.p. and the appropriate minimum velocity for such a round. In the most recent issue of "Combat Handguns" there is an article about +p .45 a.c.p. ammunition. Anyways, in this article it says that the original .45 a.c.p. ball ammunition was running at around 800 fps. That being said, is that an acceptable minimum velocity? It seems to be somewhat on the slow side (relatively speaking of course) when compared to modern ballistic tables, but of course modern ammunition is probably better, which could account for such discrepancies. That being said, the article further goes on to say that .45 going as slow as in the 600fps range is still an adequate stopper, though i'm sure the ft-lbs would be just hovering over 200 at that speed. Does anyone know is there is any validity to this statement? I seem to recall reading velocities for some .44 special that was pretty low as well, and i've never really heard of anyone saying that either caliber is a poor stopper in any configuration. The article also claims that in general a bullet has to be going at or near 1080 fps (mach 1) in order to open properly. That being said would there even be a point to using jhp's if they would fail to open? I know this is just one persons opinion, but it addressed quite a few questions i had about the round in particular so any insight you fine people might have would be quite welcome.

 

[esheato]

...a bullet has to be going at or near 1080 fps (mach 1) in order to open properly

Complete bogus. Each type of bullet is constructed differently. Some are designed to stay together, some are designed to come apart, and some are designed to open to a degree then stop.

Also, each HP bullet has an operating window of min/max velocity for the HP to operate the way it was designed.

For example, if you take a solid copper bullet (Taurus Hex or Corbon DPX) and run them really slow, you take a good chance that they aren't in their window and will fail to perform as they should. Same thing with Sierra hollowpoints (Hornady TAP)...if you run them to fast, they'll fail and come apart.

Other times, bullet nose cavities just don't agree with certain materials. The infamous Flying Ashtray (Speer 200 JHP) would fill up with denim and other materials and fail to open frequently.

Bottom line...they're all different.

Ed

 

[rcmodel]

One school of thought is for very slow, very big bullets.
The British were quite successful with the .455 Webley for a great many years of "world taming".

It used a 265 grain bullet at 620 FPS, and would knock you on your azz when you got shot with one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley

With .45 ACP, it gained it's reputation as a stopper with a 230 FMJ.
A 230 JHP is just a 230 FMJ if it fails to expand.
And if it does expand, look out!

http://www.brassfetcher.com/230grSGDSB.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/230 grain +P Hornady XTP (short barrel gun).html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/230grHornPlusP.html

rcmodel

 

[fear-mn]

the .45 acp regarless of it's lower fps is likely the best carryable round for sheer stopping power. it is a combination of weight, expansion, and wound ballistics. wound ballistics being the biggest factor. for an absolutely amazing read i'll post up a link. give it a read and post up some replies.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/jh_45acp.htm

Duane
Instructor - Founder
Firearms Education and Readiness
www.fear-mn.com

 

[MikePGS]

Thank you for the link fear, and welcome to THR.

 

[fear-mn]

Mike,

I'm glad you enjoyed the link. It is extremely informative and something I live by and preach to everyone.

And thank you for the warm welcome.


Duane
Instructor - Founder
Firearms Education and Readiness
www.fear-mn.com

 

[jimbob86]

The .45 ACP 230gr bullet at 850 f/sec grain bullet weighs TWICE what a 9mm 115 grainer does. And the 9 mil is not going all that much faster. Not to mention the larger frontal area of the former........ soembody here has a sig-line that says something like "9mm HPs may expand to .45, but .45 ACP will NEVER shrink!"

As for how slow can it be loaded- I load to around 750 f/sec for punching paper, 850 for bowling pins, all at case pressures low enough that my brass lasts practically forever! Try to get comparable energy out of a 9 and your brass wears out in a hurry.....

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"Anyways, in this article it says that the original .45 a.c.p. ball ammunition was running at around 800 fps. That being said, is that an acceptable minimum velocity? It seems to be somewhat on the slow side..."

Slow compared to what? A rifle round? Sure. A rocket? Sure. A hard thrown baseball? Not quite. 830 fps is NOT slow. That's around 560 MPH. I don't want to stand in front of ANYTHING going that fast.

 

[redneckrepairs]

the original .45 a.c.p. ball ammunition was running at around 800 fps

And that was a step up from .45 lc of the day . The .45 auto has survived ( when you consider the 1905 variant ) over 100 years now . The only older common pistol caliber is the 9mm . Both still live because both still work . a .45 at anywhere between 800 fps and 1,000 fps will reach 12" of penetration . 9mm takes more speed , but has the same terminal results given the same penetration . the .40/10mm is in fact there is not the data available not that they are bad or good , just we dont know .

 

[fear-mn]

if you read through that article redneck you'll see the 9mm does NOT have the same effects as a .45acp. the article quite clearly lays it out, no muck, no fuss, just how it is.

you have to remember it isn't about penetration. it is about:

expanded suface area of the round + fps + weight

the combined effects of all three of these things in tandom create the result. consistency in terminal ballistics is effected mostly by weight.

 

[chris in va]

And thus, we delve into the 45 vs 9 argument. Again.

 

[Trisha]

:banghead:

This is as bad as a local thread on voles (local joke, don't worry).

OP, the issue will probably tumble your gyros if you're not careful (especially if you research, instead of getting trigger time). Get some range time with a .45acp platform and you'll probably feel better.

Trisha

 

[evan price]

F=MA

Force equals Mass multiplied by Acceleration.

A 230-grain .45 is DOUBLE the mass of a 115 grain 9mm.

Assuming both are at the same speed, which will have more energy to transfer to the target?

Conversely, if you take that double weight bullet and run it half as fast, your force is the same.

Most 9mm runs around what, 1200 fps?

Double the weight at 3/4 speed still means more force delivered to the target. At that point it's all about bullet design, so that all the force is expended on the target.

Certainly a case is made that the larger .45 has more surface area and does not penetrate as well- but it also can be said that a 9mm can overpenetrate.

When you start tossing in modern controlled-expansion bullets and proper loadings for those operating characteristics, the point is moot.

 

[brickeyee]

Conversely, if you take that double weight bullet and run it half as fast, your force is the same.

Velocity is NOT acceleration.
Acceleration is the CHANGE in velocity.

 

[MikePGS]

Yes, please avoid comparisons to any caliber since I am interested in information about the .45 a.c.p. Is 800 fps in fact what the velocity was for the original cartridges used in World War 1 and 2?

 

[sig.natures]

I shoot mostly 45's but have a light carry piece in 40S&W. Winchester has a factory load 180 at a we bit over 1000 fps. I am assuming that would pass the penetration test but would like to hear your opinion. I also have a couple boxes of Black Talons coming but would like to hear general conversation on major power factory 40's.

 

[StrawHat]

I may not remember this correctly but I believe Browning tried to duplicate the military loading of the 45 Long Colt when he came up with the 45 ACP.

I also believe the original load was something like 200 grains @ 800 f/s.

(Working off memory and I do not have my books handy)

The weight was upped for to help the action of the self loader.

I do not believe the ACP was ever loaded to duplicate the civilian loadings of the 45 LC.

Any time a 45 caliber projectile leaves a barrel, it is a formidable object as mentioned by the citing of the 455 Webley and others.

More velocity, in my opinion, merely increases the point blank range.

 

[Pilot]

the original .45 a.c.p. ball ammunition was running at around 800 fps

And that was a step up from .45 lc of the day .

Not quite. .45 ACP was actually a step back from .45 Colt. The typical .45 Colt load is a 255 grain bullet going 850 - 950 FPS, whereas the .45 ACP's typical load is a 230 grain bullet travelling 800 - 850 FPS.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

 

[moooose102]

IMO, the 45acp has a BIG hunk of lead coming out of the barrel at a faily slow speed twords you. if it hits you, it is hard to stop that big hunk of lead. and the slow speed help with the transfer of energy. imo, that is why it works so well. if you drive it at some ungodly speed of something like 1800fps (impossible, but just bear with me) it would be moving so fast, that when it hit you, it would just burn a hole right through you without transfering as much energy. think of it as a comparison of a semi truck and trailer hitting a concrete barrier at 30 mph, then compare it to a datsun pick up at 90. the amount of damage to the vehicles (bullet) is going to be way different, but that semi is going to transfer way more energy to the concrete barrier than the little datsun going 3 times as fast. maybe i am all wet on the exact science of all of this, but you should get my point.

 

[Erik]

For what is is worth, when the FBI conducted it famous search for the optimal load in the 80s it declared that the 10mm (.40) 180 grain JHP at approximately 980 fps to be the best, followed closely by the .45acp 230 grain JHP at approximatley 850 fps.

The study cited the two as virtually tied in performance, and stated that if the .45acp were adopted the Firearms Unit would be satisfied, but recommended the 10mm as the best. It came down to the sectional density being better in the 10mm; that comes into play during penetration tests.

The FBI currently issues a .40 S&W 180 grain JHP at approxiamtely 1070 fps. Since they get what they want, ammunition wise, I'd wager that there is a document somewhere citing the need for the extra 90 fps to remain the best.

The FBI currently issues the HRT a .45acp 230 grain JHP at approximately 885 fps.

So, that said, I'd feel pretty good about trusting a .45acp 230 grain JHP for self defense/LEO/military purposes.

 

[Wildfire]

My 2 cents .

Hey There;
One thing that should be remembered about certian .45 acp or any defence loads for that matter. Is that , They or some of them anyway are concidered to be "STOPPING" ammo. Not blasting holes thru ammo. For certian defence work Good Stopping ammo does two things. It stops the agresser and stops in the agresser. Knowing that, we use certain ammo regardless of velocity to get these results. Modern bullet design is really quite somthing. They as a rule do what they are designed to do very well. Rapidly expanding rounds at low velocity usually will stop inside and that would be the desired result. Rather then blowing on thru and hurting something or some one that does no deserve it. I use The Gold Dots in my Kimber .45 Ulta carry. They are designed with the stopping thing in mind. That is what I hope would happen should I ever have to use it for it's intended purpose. Be careful when dealing with numbers. numbers can and often do lie. Even the 230 grain round nose was and still is a very bad way to get hit. Foot lbs of energy have very little to do with the results. Velocity numbers won't matter much at that point either. But , Your question is a good one.

 

[SaxonPig]

I used to believe all that BS about the 45 being a good stopper until I witnessed a gunfight and saw a scrawny little guy take four solid hits to the torso with 230 ball from a 45 ACP and his only reaction to all that knock-down power hitting him was to run away. He did eventually bleed out and die but I was severely underwhelmed by the performance of the legendary 45 ACP.

I have since come to realize that no handgun will truly have "knock-down" power. My preference in a SD handgun is for medium weight JHPs driven at high velocity.

But that's me. You all choose what makes you happy.

 

[Jim K]

I really hate to do something like actually answer the question that was asked, but yes, the military ball round, Cartridge, Pistol, Ball, Cal. .45, has a 230 grain bullet and a muzzle velocity of 800 fps +/- 25 fps from the pistol. Velocity from SMG's was greater.

Jim

 

[MikePGS]

Thank you much Jim

 

[Wildfire]

Agreed.

Hey there:
One post in here said things about Knock down power . He is correct. NO such thing.. Numbers are numbers. Bad hits are bad hits. A good hit from a .22 could have canned the guy, but instead 4 from a .45 acp did not. Bullets do what bullets do. We can not predict a reaction nor can we discount what should have happened. Just a bad day....
Again we hope for the best. But , never rely on numbers to do a job for you. The .45 acp has a good reputation and will for years to come. But sometimes things just don't go the way they should have. A rapidly expanding bullet will always do more damage and shorten the resistance time factor.