A few questions about accuracy of measuring powder

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jerry D

Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
118
1 - How much variance in powder charge is allowed on factory ammunition? Lets use .30-06 Remington core lokts as the example.

2 - How uniform or how much variance do you get using a powder measure? Lets use a nice ball type powder such as H335 and compare it to something like Varget - also if you could name the powder measurer that you use it would be appreciated.

3 - How much variance do you accept in your powder charge?

Currently I'm weighing every charge and their within .1 grains of each other but its very time consuming....
 
I have found +/- 0.3grs (what I get with Varget on a Dillon progressive) is adequate for NRA Highpower competition. Sometimes I weigh my loads for 600yds, but often I don't.

When I'm testing loads, I shoot 10rd groups. Half the group is loaded 0.3grs heavy, the other half is 0.3grs light. This weeds out fussy loads and saves me gobs of time down the road when I'm loading 500rds at a sitting.

Charge weight consistancy is highly overrated.
 
Last edited:
The deviation as a percentage of the total charge is meaningful as well.

±.5 grains in my 300 Win Mag with R-22 is a lot less concerning than the same deviation with Unique in my 10mm. The former instance is less than 1%, while the latter is approaching 10%.
 
Weighing powder for pistol is a waste of time. No measure will be off enough to make any real difference.

Ditto with all but the coarsest powders for sporter rifle shooting inside 300 yards, unless maybe you are crowding onto blowing primers.
 
When measuring pistol powder (W231, Power Pistol) my loads don't vary any. Same results with a RCBS Uniflow and my Hornady powder measure. I get a 0.1 varanice with Unique.
 
The charges for these 308 cases were all dumped on a Dillion 550B. With IMR 4895, the charges can vary as much as 0.5 grains.

The human error aiming error is larger than any errors created by powder varience.

Still, for 600 yard ammo, I weigh charges. My loads at that distance are max. I cannot say my scores are any better due to the weighing.

With the 30-06 and 308 cases, I really doubt a half a grain varience of anything will be noticed by the shooter.

Stop wasting time weighing charges, and spend that time loading more ammo, and shooting more ammo. That will have a bigger pay off.

M70Win200-14X168Nosler39.jpg

200-11XPRFM70413XXX.jpg
 
The powder charge is not that important in a 243win if every thing else is correct. Using IMR 4350 you can be testing loads with every thing the same except for powder and still shoot into the same 3/4" group when moving the powder charge by .5gr for each 5 shot group.
 
Alright, thanks guys

I'm not a fan of the magnums and I'm not a fan of max loads either. I'll find something in the middle that's accurate. I think I'll also pick up a powder measurer. I'll read some reviews and find one that throws pretty consistent charges as I don't need the bench rest accuracy.
 
SlamFire1, are those reduced targets that were shot at 100 yards?

The reason I ask is that a few weeks ago I made up some loads for my .300 Win Mag using Norma cases that were on average about 20 grains lighter than the W-W Super cases that I've been using. Since I feel that I've found the OCW load for the 208gr A-MAX bullet, I was pleased to see that the Norma loads grouped in exactly the same place on the target as the W-W Super loads and the groups were small. My first thought was that this is proof of the validity of the OCW method. HOWEVER, when I looked at the chronograph data, the Norma loads were around 90 fps SLOWER (probably due to the increased case capacity and therefore lower pressure). So my point is, if I didn't have a chronograph, the results at 100 yards would have led me to believe that the Norma loads would be fine at 600 yards, but given the reduced velocity, they would have been a long way off.

:)
 
Last edited:
I think the significance of +/- 0.3 grains depends entirely on what you plan to do with your loads and how much data you've collected under different conditions. For example, consider this load from Sierra for their 168gr SMK bullet using Reloder 15.

Code:
Reloder 15
168gr SMK HPBT
BC = 0.462

Powder				 41.7gr	    42.0gr     42.3gr
Velocity (fps)			 2580	     2600       2620
Bullet drop @ 600 yards		-108.2	   -106.3     -104.3
Bullet drop @ 1000 yards	-446.4	   -438.5     -430.7

The difference in "theoretical" POI between 41.7gr and 42.3gr at 600 yards is 3.9" and the difference at 1000 yards is 15.7"! Given that the SR-42 (600 yard target) X and 10 ring are 2.1" and 4.6" respectively, and the X and 10 ring on the F-Class 1000 yard target are 5.0" and 10.0" respectively, +/- 0.3 grains MAY be a big deal!!

Of course, there are "sweet spots" (OCW concept) where bullet velocity doesn't seem to change as the powder increases/decreases by some nominal amount. If your loads are in that region then perhaps you can be less diligent. Personally, I want my loads to be right in the center of the OCW sweet spot with as much velocity as I can safely achieve and with as accurate amount of powder as I can reasonably dispense. With the Lyman check weights and the RCBS CM I'm confident that my loads are +/- 0.1 grains so the errors on the target are down to me.

:)
 
1. Factory ammo is loaded to get a specific velocity range. If a load gives that, it's close enough. Factory ammo is kind of like buying an off the rack suit. Fits, but isn't an exact fit for you.
2. Any powder measure will you accurate loads, but you should check every 10th or so cartridge. None of 'em are as good as weighing each charge. Depends on what kind of ammo you're loading. Hunting ammo doesn't have to be as exact as target ammo. Personally, I weigh every charge.
3. None. Even for hunting ammo. The best ammo is meticulously loaded. Despite how long it takes. Speed comes with technique.
"...find something in the middle that's accurate..." Do this.
Beginning with the starting load given in your manual, load 5 rounds only. Go up by half a grain of powder, loading 5 of each keeping them separate until you get to the max load in your manual.
Then go shooting. Shoot at 100 yards, for group only, slowly and deliberately off a bench.
Change targets between strings of 5 and allow time for the barrel to cool.
When you find the best group, sight in.
When you have the most accurate load, set your powder thrower to that and check it regularly.
 
1 - How much variance in powder charge is allowed on factory ammunition? Lets use .30-06 Remington core lokts as the example.

2 - How uniform or how much variance do you get using a powder measure? Lets use a nice ball type powder such as H335 and compare it to something like Varget - also if you could name the powder measurer that you use it would be appreciated.

3 - How much variance do you accept in your powder charge?

Currently I'm weighing every charge and their within .1 grains of each other but its very time consuming....

1) As has been pointed out, factory loads use bulk powders which are blended to a specific pressure and velocity range for the intended loads to be made. They have to be able to be loaded in several different types of firearms, so the pressure curve will be sufficient to operate gas, function in pumps with out locking them up and also be accurate in bolt actions. Their loads might vary up to .5grs but the pressures and velocity will still be fairly consistent.

2) I use Uniflow measure for about 98% of my loads. I have one set up with the small rotor and dedicated to handgun loads, and two others for rifle loads. The handgun charges I have found generally run .02grs more or less depending on which powders I am shooting. With something like Unique which are flake, is where the variance is more notable, where as powders like 2400 or 296 flow just about on the money every throw. The issue with rifle loads and the stick powders is that sometimes you get grain cutting which will tend to vary the weight a tad as well as depending on the length of the stick, you will get differing compressions of the powder in the bore of the rotor. This however will generally still get you to within .02gr or so which in most mid sized cartridges will not change a lot in the way of performance out to around 300yds. In smaller cases like the 223, you will see a wider variance in performance due to the smaller case capacities. For those smaller cases I do weigh out stick type powders, but if using ball powders they are generally close enough with the scale when simply thrown.

3) The loads specific purpose dictates the variance. Some loads I weigh out simply due to them being used for exacting accuracy, some that are used for general target practice, or general hunting, are simply thrown and the bullet seated. These are mostly mid range loads, and the accuracy of them runs around 1" or so on average. Plenty good for everything I shoot, at or under 200yds. For the longer range loads, depending on the powder, I throw some of them and weigh some of them. Depends on whether loading stick or ball as mentioned above.

I use my Uniflows for load development as well, weighing out selected powder charges and recording the min and max setting on the stem. Then once at the range, I start at the minimum setting and work up in 1/4 turns or less depending on the load, until I hit something that has promise. At this point I will weight out several charges on either side of the setting, and verify the best load for that particular combination. Then once finalized I will record the setting for that load on my stem for future reference. Depending on the powder type future loads will either be simply thrown after verifying the setting or thrown and trickled up to the proper weight.

I learned to load using a scale, but at that time I only loaded up around 50 rounds at a time. Now I load anywhere between 50 and 500 rounds, and sometimes more, at a time so the measures are really the only way to go in some cases. What ever deminished accuracy that the deviation might have, is generally not as critical as me doing my part in putting the bullet where it needs to be.
 
SlamFire1, are those reduced targets that were shot at 100 yards?

Those are 100 yard targets shot at my local CMP Gunclub during a 100 yard Highpower Match. One is 20 shot prone slow fire, with irons, the other is 20 shots prone rapid fire, with irons.

I have a lot more targets that don't look as good. :rolleyes:

I do not believe I made any sight changes, elevation or windage, when shooting either of these targets. The dispersion is due to positional changes, not seating depth, case weight, powder variations, or bullet runnout.

Now if I could shoot the entire 20 rounds in a group less than 1/2", maybe I could detect impact changes due to ammunition. Till then, ammunition errors are in the noise.
 
When you say "ACCURACY" for a measure you really mean "CONSISTANCY", that's not quite the same. No volume despensing system can possible be highly consistant with coarse powers, most are quite consistant wiht fine gained powders. Much of the consistancy comes from the user being consistant himself.

BR shooters don't weigt charges, usually. But they don't use our inexpensive dispensers either and they also tend to use fine grained powders. But, WE do like our coarse powders for valid reasons so things are a bit different for us.

A rotating drum measure is about all we have to choose from. The old Redding design seems most popular, think the current model is a 30. Hornady has a decent clone of it, the RCBS is a variation but they charge more for a micrometer head that the others include for free. I prefer the Redding, it's been tested by the NRA and was shown to be the most consistant by a small margin. If you get any one of these, get both the rifle and pistol drums if you intend to load smaller charges.

Lyman's #55 is an old reliable. It has a twin slide measurement rotor that works as well with both coarse and fine powders as a single system can do it.

Lee's inexpensive little "Perfect" powder measure has a reputation of being perhaps the best - meaning the most consistant - with coarse powders but tiny gaps in the mechanism sometimes leaks ball powders and that can be irratating.

That's about the sum total of current powder measures for us common shooters. You could get a Harrels or Culver BR type measure if you're willing to spend several hundred dollars but even they don't work all that great for coarse tubular powders.
 
My discipline is to weigh each rifle charge to .1gr of the chosen load. It's one more controllable factor that will contribute to good groups. This job is made easier with my Lyman 55 powder measure which I believe is one of the most consistent measures for the money and that's with all styles of powder. Once set, it will hold .1gr consistency with nearly every powder that I use. Rarely do I need to adjust the drop.
If you are happy with a +- .3gr or .5gr powder variance, so be it.

NCsmitty
 
SlamFire1 said:
Those are 100 yard targets shot at my local CMP Gunclub during a 100 yard Highpower Match. One is 20 shot prone slow fire, with irons, the other is 20 shots prone rapid fire, with irons.

With all due respect, +/- 0.3gr won't show up that much (if at all) at 100 yards since the differences in velocity won't come into play at such a short distance. Move out to 600 yards and then it will become a big deal and +/- 0.3gr can mean the difference between a 200-20X or a 180-0X. Move out to 1000 yards and the error is even more SIGNIFICANT.


To the OP ...

1. The acceptable variance in powder charge will depend on your intended use of your ammunition. Personally, since my equipment is capable of +/- 0.1gr that's my acceptable tolerance.

2. I have a Redding 10X that I use for .45 Colt loads (around 23.0gr) and it's +/- 0.1gr. I'm thinking about using it for .223 loads which I shoot at 200 yards and 300 yards in matches since +/- 0.1gr is more than accurate enough.

:)
 
Thanks for the posts all. Currently I'm starting to load for my two rifles, a .30-06 bolt action that gets fired about 50 times a year, I go out every weekend about a month before deer hunting... and my .223 bolt action.

I will weigh the charges for the .30-06 as I don't shoot it too much, as for the .223 I am wanting good accuracy so I will weigh them too.

Perhaps I'll through a charge then trickle up to what I want it to be. Best of both worlds.

Thanks
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top