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a holster for every gun

Discussion in 'Handguns: Holsters and Accessories' started by KazPGates, Jan 9, 2012.

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  1. KazPGates

    KazPGates Member

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    I believe it needs to be looked into, that there should be an efa holster for every handgun in the world, for those not familiar, this is the holster spetsnaz used with the makarov, it is a clam shell over the slide, when you put the gun in, it cannot be drawn straight back up, but rather it must be pushed through chambering a round. solving what would seem to be quit the dillema which would be carrying round in the chamber or not. not, if chambering and drawing are one in the same and with actually more haste.
     
  2. bdb benzino

    bdb benzino Member

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    Too many people carry with one in the chamber for this to become poular. I love my Makarovs, and have also seen those holsters, but I would rather have one in the pipe and carry IWB so I don't loose a round of capacity. YMMV.
    Neat history about Makarovs and those holsters though!
     
  3. AEA

    AEA Member

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    I do not agree with a solution to a problem that does not exist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
  4. CraigC
    • Contributing Member

    CraigC Member

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    Nor would I want to rely on such a contraption to 'make' my pistol ready for whatever situation compelled me to draw it.
     
  5. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Well, what are you proposing? Do you have any idea who might make these?

    I'd be real hesitant to try to adopt something so critically important, and which would have to be completely intuitive to use, but which has to operate exactly counter to every other holster I use.

    Even if I ditched all my autoloader holsters for this style, it would still work backward from my revolver holsters, which means I'd have to process the conscious decision whether to push hard down, or pull up when I establish my firing grip.

    And, of course it would still be opposite to my competition holsters. Pushing down to chamber a round on every draw is going to be slower than a traditional draw, so pistol competitors won't adopt it. So, again, I'm stuck with having to remember in the instant of need which way I'm supposed to go, or I end up presenting a gun with an empty chamber!

    Still, I'm sure there is a holster maker out there who'd be willing to build them if you could front the money for a test run. Obviously, as others said, this is a solution to a problem that 99.9% of the gun-carriers in the world are (at best) unaware they have, so you're going to need to find a way to build interest and momentum or there won't be many sales.
     
  6. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Good grief, no, I am quite happy with my High Noon setup,

    DownUndertwomonthslater.jpg

    I would have nothing to do with such a contraption.
     
  7. PabloJ

    PabloJ Member

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    BHP & 1911 guys need something like that.
     
  8. KazPGates

    KazPGates Member

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    haha, to each his own, it would be more a duty holster, not so much conceal carry, unless you live somewhere cold and want the should holster style, I meet those requirements, it was actually supposed to be much faster and instinctual than traditional holster styles, no safety flipping no up, rotate, join, extend, just draw. I don't think it has to eclipse regular holsters as a whole, but there is a company that gets by on making them for maks alone.
    it seems most Israeli carry people are family men who are most commonly packing while loved ones are present, if an accidental discharge could magically manifest itself, my brother seems to prefer it not be into his daughter or wife who are pretty commonly in target acquired status of the business end of his cz 75 sp01 tac... maybe it will never happen, maybe it couldn't, but, loved ones are in line a whole lot more than badies, at least until the zombie Apocalypse right? anywho, there are plenty of Israeli carry folks such as my self out there for a small company to get by.
    I would by one for every gun I ever own that is applicable.
    p.s. plenty of the vendors at the last two gun shows I attended, actually said they already did carry con 3 or said they would if they had the holster.
    just a thought really, thought,"maybe if I get the thought out there, the right person will here me"
     
  9. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    What if you short-stroke it and cause a malfunction? How much training does it take, compared with how much the average police officer actually gets?

    A shoulder holster version? So you have to reach across your body and then push down? Or to the rear (depending on orientation)? That's working totally against your major muscle groups. A nightmare of a draw, seems to me.

    Not quite. Push down, hard, then bring gun up to present. So you're putting muscle and momentum into going the "wrong" way, then recovering from that motion and reversing direction to present the gun.

    I'd like to see a head-to-head comparison to see how whatever benefits there might be balance against the loss of speed, and having to be one round short of the usual total capacity in the gun.

    Wait, your brother points his gun at his kids? I don't think I understand what you're saying here. WHY would he have an ND, and why would his kids be in the way of his muzzle? That's not a holster problem...

    But, yes. There's lots of folks in the world looking for something new. If you made it, someone will buy it. No question about that.
     
  10. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "BHP & 1911 guys need something like that."

    No we don't.

    The topic is a non-starter about a non-issue.
     
  11. AEA

    AEA Member

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    JohnBT.......you beat me to it......
    NO WE DON'T
     
  12. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

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  13. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    I'll just stick with my load chamber, cocked hammer and locked safety in a leather IWB thankyouverymuch (MUCH safer than carrying with an empty chamber ... 'cause if you ever need your gun you're going to need it RIGHT NOW!).

    [​IMG]

    Fancy holsters and other akward methods of carry are no substitute for just following the 4 rules.

    If that were true than the IDPA/IPSC guys would be using them. How can it possibly be faster than pulling a loaded and chambered pistol out of the holster while swiping the safety off with your thumb?

    Just keep in mind that the Russian holster posted is the product of know-nothing bureaucrats making silly rules (no carry of chambered weapons) and not from good sense and real world experience. Same thing goes for the draw and rack technique the Israelis use.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2012
  14. Zach S

    Zach S Member

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    No we don't.

    Even if I had some use for it, I'm tall and thin, so I carry IWB... I don't think that holster would work out to well. And I'm accustomed to drawing my handgun from the top of my holster. Having one that required me to push it through would work as well as the automakers moving the controls around on me, like Norton did on their bikes.
     
  15. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Watched the video, still pretty sure that's not any answer I'm ever looking for, but if you like it, go for it, amigo.
     
  16. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    no
    absolutely not

    1- if your gun is not safe in a proper holster, IT ISN'T SAFE AT ALL
    2- what do you do for re-holstering? If I'm forced to draw and fire, and then need to holster my weapon, it will have a round in the chamber, I'm nopt going to drop the mag, rack the slide, discard a round, and then re-insert mag and re-holster ... a holster needs to work with any given state of the weapon being holstered
    3- why would I want to shove the gun the wrong way?
    4- it doesn't look particularly compact
    5- it would require an even stiffer gun belt, or a painfully tight one, I don't have a duty belt, my gun hangs off of the same thing that keeps my pants up
    6- it wouldn't match the thousands of repetitions I've drilled in for the more economical right-direction draw stroke, fighting muscle memory as well as being deliberately slower
    7- how does it deal with malfunctions and wear/tear?
    8- will it work every time?
    9- will it work after a few thousand practice uses?
    ===

    Leave these bureaucrat inventions to the people who have to listen to the idiot bureaucrats ... if you don't HAVE to carry empty-chamber, just carry with a round in the pipe ... don't make un-needed gadgets to make a gun "almost chambered".
    I'm reminded of a holster that kept the slide locked open, waiting to slam shut and chamber the first round ... it was a silly and unwise way to carry, only existing to let people carry in a silly way.
     
  17. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    I would only want one for a Makarov simply for the novelty but not for serious work. Looks like it could be quite the show and tell piece.
    Do you happen to remember what it was called? I would like to see that holster.
     
  18. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    nope, might have been a one-off design

    I remember that it had a little lug to keep the slide latch lever forced up and was supposed to let you trip it down yourself.
    Don't remember gun model (Glock?) for sure, I'm pretty sure it was a paddle-type that had been modified.
     
  19. KazPGates

    KazPGates Member

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    hmmm, well, I guess not as many people like israeli carry, I am sure I can argue a lot of points made, but, I believe they could be a great asset to people on duty, again, as ccw I dont think it has any place, but the draw would be more natural, it is supposed to actually be faster, and it requires only gross motor skill, and as far as safety, I cant imagine how cocked and locked compares any day of the week to no round in the chamber, I wont carry cocked and locked cocked and decocked or any way with a round in the chamber. the only valid point I have seen is reholstering, but, its the draw that much be quick, chances are your not reholstering if you had to use it, you are just dropping it.
     
  20. KazPGates

    KazPGates Member

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    and know he doesn't point his guns at any one, but when he has his shoulder holster on, and is riding passenger front in his car, his gun is pointing into the back seat with his kids, when he is wearing his fanny pack holster, and walking around with his family, again, gun sits perfect height and angle with his daughters head. it is happening all the time, so, he decided to never start carrying with one in the chamber, plus the chance of him needing the 20th round actually in his gun is kinda out there really, and again, as for the speed thing it was tought to be faster it required less training time and brought quicking results to the draw, noo unsnapping a strap no flipping a safety, no long first trigger pull, as you rotate into stance, you push through and use the mommentum to make a small circle. I don't feel it is novel or unuseful at all, I know myself and about 10 other people personally interested. its different, that seems to be everyones biggest problem, that and some what if, what if you draw a gun from a normal holster and it doesn't fire....the holsters weere designed to meet the russian requirment for reliabilty and durability, and had to function in the worste situation, I think it is a serious advancement in holster design, maybe not everyone would want one, obviously no one on this site, but....I thought I woud put it out there, it is unique and I think very highly of them. if they start making more, you can count me in. I would use nothing else as my duty holsters on the job.
     
  21. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Again, not possible. You're starting out by throwing your force hard into pushing the gun in the wrong direction. Then you have to recover from that thrust, change directions and present the gun. A trainer or experienced competitor could show you this very clearly in about 5 seconds.

    Lots of striker-fired, double-action only, and DA/SA guns in the world. None of them require anything more than draw and press the trigger.

    But you realize your feelings on this place you in an extreme minority of shooters, and folks who carry a gun for any reason.

    Any negligent discharge is scary and carries risks of tragedy. But there is no pandemic of rampant negligent discharges taking place. They are pretty darned rare, considering how many guns there are in the world. This isn't a pressing problem in need of a solution.

    Really? Well, we tried.

    Quick, yes, but also it must bring the gun into action ready to go, instantly. Any step that starts with chambering a round introduces a failure point. If folks can short-stroke a pump shotgun under stress, I guarantee you they'll be able to short-stroke this holster mechanism and come up with either an empty chamber or a jammed gun. GUARANTEED.

    Sometimes, when we draw, it is really darned important that the gun work RIGHT NOW.

    Noooo, no that's not true at all. Your holster needs to stand ready to accept your gun, without looking and without fumbling, and one-handed because there are LOTS of things you might need your hands free for, and then need to have the gun at the ready again quickly.

    And I thought you said this was better as a duty holster? How does a cop cuff and secure a suspect? Throw his gun down? Stop and unload it and re-holster? Not even really a feasible workaround for that problem.

    But if this was used by someone for a self-defense gun, you do not throw down your gun when the trouble appears to cease. That's A possibility, if the police arrive on scene while you still have your gun out. (Well, maybe place it carefully on the ground.) But that's not, by far, the most likely result of a self-defense situation, whether or not shots are fired.

    Need a holster that works as a holster should work. This design just doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  22. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    This is one of those mental games we sometimes fool with ourselves over. A holstered gun is a safe gun. The only time guns experience negligent discharges is when your hands are on them and fingers press triggers. NO safe, modern gun is going to "just go off" when it is holstered, even in a shoulder holster or fanny pack holster. So, if he can remember not to fiddle with the gun when driving around, then his kids are in no danger at all.

    Right, we covered that. It isn't. That's not my opinion. That's a fact.

    I believe my fastest draw from concealment and shot into the "Down 0" zone on a target is about 1.1 seconds. That's with a 1911 with a thumb safety. The safety comes off without conscious thought put into it. There is no delay.

    Stance? If you can achieve your stance, great. Try to operate this while grappling with someone or in a seriously out-of-position situation. It gets worse and worse.

    Right. We call that the "potato digger" draw. Or the "scoop and shoot." It is one of the mistakes we try to teach new shooters not to make. Don't start out going in the wrong direction -- it just slows you down.

    Well, I hope I've been able to explain that my own biggest set of problems with it aren't due to it just being "different." The design exchanges a perception of safety for some serious process and reliability drawbacks that I would not accept, given any other choice.

    Duty holster? Are you a police officer? How do you handle the "cuffing" problem I mentioned above? One-hand it? Or climbing a ladder or fence? Or any of several thousand tasks you might have to stow your gun to perform.

    You're welcome to it, if you can get one, but I imagine your department will frown on you using it on the job.
     
  23. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    To sum up; this holster is a hardware solution for what is really a software problem.

    Anyone that is carrying a gun needs to have the minimum amount of training to do so safely ... fancy gadgets instead of training serve only to INCREASE negligent discharges (and with proper training ... which will take all of 10 minutes ... this thing is unnecessary).

    Considering who and what this holster was really designed for ... lets put it this way, shooting dissidents in the back of the head while they're on their knees with their hands tied behind their back I imagine one could easily get into their "stance" with little problem. :neener:


    You do what you feel comfortable with, but frankly the sooner you disabuse yourself of this notion the better.

    There is a reason why things are done the way they are. Carrying a firearm with "one in the pipe" (even one of those scary looking cocked & locked single action guns) is the safest way to carry. If you're packing a Makarov, its probably one of the safest small pistols you can carry (even if your safety lever is warn enough to disengage while in holster, the heavy DA trigger alone is enough to keep you safe).

    This isn't a matter of academics or theory, its something that is practiced on the streets of virtually every major city in the world on a daily basis.

    The ONLY reason why any agency anywhere in the world carries their guns with empty chambers is due to decisions made by non-gun carrying bureaucrats (who are often opposed to their underlings even carrying a gun in the first place).
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  24. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Oh NO! You didn't! Yikes! :D
     
  25. Joel

    Joel Member

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    On one VERY SMALL level, I can see the appeal to this design. By forcing the user to extract the handgun by pressing down, you eliminate the possibility of an inexperienced user wrapping their finger around the trigger in panic mode to help pull the firearm out. On all other levels, it just scares me. The hard downward motion combined with the slide sling-shotting and attempting to maintain a strong hard only master grip and trying to find the trigger for quick engagement is too much for the same inexperienced shooter. Add to the fact that you are now in full extension, strong-hand-only, in a SD scenario and you need to get the firearm up to your target quickly, find your front sight that is arching into your field-of-view without presenting the firearm within reach of the bad guy and you have a tactical nightmare for even experienced shooters. I wont even go into the added simplicity of a bad guys ability to get your firearm while holstered. I'm all for innovative designs, but this is the quintessential solution trying to find a problem.
     
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