A more ergonomic rifle?

[WestKentucky]

I had always wondered what a different rifle layout would feel like that was built specifically to fit a right handed person, essentially abandoning a traditional rifle layout, and starting over. Sounds odd... I’m odd so it works.

The issue:
A traditional rifle layout has thetrigger group and grip areas of the rifle essentially vertical. It’s not ergonomically “bad” but a more natural stance is more like that of a boxer with the arms upand the hands at roughly 30ish degrees from vertical.

The evidence:
I acquired a set of 45 degree AR sights which seemed to work well enough on the trigger, but everything else was just wrong because the AR is traditional vertical layout. There’s something to this though as it felt good in the hands but on the shoulder it was very funky. Tweaking the forend on the AR made it even better as I could put the AFG exactly where I wanted it.

The solution?
This is the tricky part. Adapting a design doesn’t seem to be a good idea because everything is engineered to load, function, and eject based on a vertical layout. Angling a repeater seems questionable as there is s high probability of a spent shell coming back into the ejection port (or never leaving it) and jamming things up. A single shot seems workable if a new stock was built, or a traditional gun could be used if a reciever was heavily modified.

Does anybody else ever have these crazy thoughts? Feedback on this one? Ideas on what to use if I chase this?

 

[jmr40]

You talking about semi auto, bolt or something else. The vertical grip on a bolt gun that we see on some tactical rifles and thumbhole stocks places the hand in a good position for shooting. But really slows down operating the bolt. On a bolt rifle I prefer a more open grip with much less of a vertical feel in order to work the bolt quickly. On a semi auto the AR style is pretty close to perfect for me.

 

[WestKentucky]

You talking about semi auto, bolt or something else. The vertical grip on a bolt gun that we see on some tactical rifles and thumbhole stocks places the hand in a good position for shooting. But really slows down operating the bolt. On a bolt rifle I prefer a more open grip with much less of a vertical feel in order to work the bolt quickly. On a semi auto the AR style is pretty close to perfect for me.

No, you are thinking of rotating the grip forward. I’m thinking of rotating the grip, and trigger, to the side a bit to make the grip more natural. Kinda in this position with right hand up near the chin and left hand out.

 

[Jim Watson]

Some High Power shooters hold the rifle with a substantial cant for ergonomics.
Adjustable buttplate, comb, and sight base let them roll the action to a comfortable angle.

 

[Demi-human]

Does anybody else ever have these crazy thoughts?

If the ejection port on an AR were on the left side, like the Stag Arms left-handed upper, when you cant it for a better hold it would eject to your feet, instead of to your right side partners open shirt...

Most of my other thoughts are crazier than that and should remain locked where they are...

The buffer tube can be rotated in the receiver extension, enabling a stock cant with available parts for trial.
(I guess that one wasn't so bad either...)

But it won't lay flat like a "vertically oriented" rifle.

 

[LoonWulf]

I after using some "ergo" stuff, my personal feeling is that it's great when used exactly they way it's intended, but much harder to adapt.
Imagine having to shoot it on your weak side, or a really awkward position.

From playing paintball, the guys who do hold their markers hand cocked out, usually get shot in the knuckles pretty quick.
Since your bore line is farther into your body than your hand. A shot that would miss a more vertical, or tucked in stance, will still snag the player trailing hand as they pull back in.....then you got the jerks that will intentionally shoot you in the hand cause it hurts.
No idea how much similarity that might have to a combat situation, it's just an observation.

Playing back where I wasn't concerned with getting hit, I did shoot centered with my hands in about that position, and my marker canted back towards my head so I could sight down the right side of the barrel. It helped control long volleys and you only really had to point your body at your target.

 

[silicosys4]

Saw this on Forgotten Weapons a while back, it struck me as an interesting design and probably pretty comfortable to shoot. If they rotated the grip a little bit, it would probably be about as natural a position as you could realistically get.





https://modernfirearms.net/en/grenade-launchers/south-africa-grenade-launchers/paw-20-eng/

 

[someguy2800]

The problem I see of having angled grips or basically anything out of line of vertical is that you will have to use muscle strength keep the gun rolling over from gravity, so rather than just having to support the weight of the gun you add another variable of adding tension in your wrist that will be different depending on what shooting position your in.

This is one thing that has always fascinated me though. There are certain things that have been basically perfected for centuries and we have only made small incremental improvements to the same basic form. For instance a shovel or an axe still looks exactly the same as they were made 10,000 years ago. In that time we still haven't figured out a better way to dig holes or split wood by hand. In 600 or so years of development we still haven't come up with a weapon that is better than a rifle, and we are still making them all in the same basic form with controls in the same place as crossbows. Likewise early car design was all over the place, but every car for the last 90 years has just been a copy and refinement of the Ford model A. They all use the same controls locations and layout from that car. Interesting if you think about it.

 

[adcoch1]

When I was young and had time to ponder this stuff I took an sks, mounted a vertical grip(i believe it was a standard a2 grip i had laying around) on the left side of the stock, ans an ak grip to the trigger group. Shaved the stock down and mounted a butt plate at a 45 degree angle to the left, so when shouldered the rifle was tilted 45 degrees. It ejected to the left instead of straight up, I could control rapid fire easily, but it was useless to use the vertical grip weak side shooting. Still it worked well. I took it apart and replaced the stock after the second trip to the range, since it was too specialized to be useful.

 

[Hookeye]

Ergonomically, fluid deployment............I detest the AR.
Much better for me is a Ruger #1. Just wish they did their quarter rib a bit different so one didn't need to use offset rings.
A #1 A with such a rib.............oh yeah.
The rifles kinda suck recoil wise, hit harder than they should......but to carry and snap up..........they are wonderful (for me).
There is a guy, Renner...........that changes stocks.......supposedly makes them feel even better.
I'd like to handle the Germanic

http://www.rjrenner.com/ruger-no.1.html

 

[chicharrones]

. . . but it was useless to use the vertical grip weak side shooting.

That's my thought. Having the gun made to be angled for a right hand shooter, means the gun will be difficult for use by a left hand shooter, or if a right hand shooter has to go to the weak side.

When I shoot a long gun on the weak side, it feels all kinds of unnatural, but at least I can do it if I want to.

 

[Picher]

A rifle has to be easy to carry, since hunting and military rifles are carried more than they are shot. Military rifles also need to be placed in racks or some stacking mode often. The wider the rifle, the less handy it may be for transport or storage. Projections also affect carry/storage.

Certainly, there are some modifications that may make military rifles more comfortable to use, but such rifles need to be somewhat ambidextrous should the primary user be incapacitated and the rifle used by another who may be left-handed, taller, shorter, bigger/smaller.

Service rifles also need to be easy to maintain, hopefully, quickly. These days, they also need to be capable of handling optical or electrical do-dads.

The perfect service rifle may not have been developed yet and may never be, but it's interesting to see the latest designs and gadgets that are available, or will become available in the future.

 

[Hookeye]

And worst case, the rifle for military app, has to be used as a club.