A muzzleloader that wouldn't fire...

Status
Not open for further replies.
I

Imperial Guardsman

Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
44
Location
Tillamook, Oregon
Well, it has been a long time since I was here!

I just had an experience with my Investarm 120B Hawken percussion cap (.54 caliber) and wanted to share it for others who may run into the same problem.

I had put away this rifle with plenty of oil because I didn't see myself shooting it for a while. Well, last week I wanted to shoot it and forgot to blow out the oil that was in it. Out in the filed I fired one cap with no load as a token clearing shot and then loaded up with 80 grains of ff Goex black powder. It didn't fire and, after 3 or 4 caps, I realized that oil might have still been in there.

I tried using the ball remover screw (as that was what I thought one did in such a situation) and ended up breaking the ramrod with the force I was exerting trying to remove the ball. With my tail between my legs, I went to the gunsmith and he quickly put in some more powder through the hole where the nipple goes, put the nipple back on and a cap, and then it fired.

So, the lesson here is that a bit of powder through the back might be the solution.

My question for the rest of you is this: Have you ever successfully removed a ball with the screw attachment on a ramrod? The gunsmith didn't look to kindly on them.
 
I've done the screw attachment thing, and it is mighty difficult, especially if the ball was a tight fit.

I've done the powder in the back thing, and it worked ok. However, one thing I know others have done is make a compressed air fitting with the same thread as the nipple, and use compressed air to blow the ball and wet powder etc out.

I usually coat the inside of my Hawken and Kentucky barrels with Bore butter for storage. Before I shoot, I run 4-5 patches down the barrels to clean them out, and then pop off a couple of caps to make sure things are in order.
 
When I got my Pedersoli Tryon rifle if there was any hint of oil or grease in the barrel, it would not fire. I would remove the nipple and prime the socket with some FFF refit the nipple and it would fire. Some guys at the club have CO2 gismos that screw into the nipple aperture to clear the barrel. I have once used a ball puller on a pistol barrel and the screw end broke up the ball and it came out in bits. It wasn't easy
 
I never have either in the over 50 years I've been at this. I have always pulled
the nipple, put a little 4 F in, and shot it out. Always carry a small Elmer's Glue
bottle filled with 4f priming powder when I shot percussion.
 
I have. But not using the genuine article. I made my own version using a steel rod, a fine-thread drywall screw, and 2 brass collars to avoid the steel contacting the bore and to hold the screw on center. (It's nice to have a metal lathe.) It works, but there's a better way:

I much prefer replacing the nipple with a zerk (grease) fitting, and taking several pumps with a grease gun. Nothing compares to the power one can exert with a grease gun, and it works every time.

Of course, it's messy. :)
 
Yes I have but only when I put no powder at all under the ball. Memory is a wonderful thing.
 
^^^^
This... (+1)
I've pulled musket/minnies -- NEVER been able to pull a tightly-patched ball (NEVER)

As to storing w/ bore-butter as bore perservative ... DON'T. (all it is is mineral oil).
Use a good military-spec gun CLP (e.g., BreakFree, WeaponShield, etc).
Don't fool around.
Steel is steel.
 
AMEN Mehavy: I wound up swallowing the TC preservative line and having to lap a really nice .54. CLP or any GOOD oil is the surest way to go
 
The CO2 gizmos are terrific and the sort of thing you can throw into your black powder case and forget about until you need it. But the couple of grains through the rear technique is usually easier if you're at the range and it's a known problem (i.e. it's not a gun that somebody else loaded years ago and there might be smokeless in there for all you know). Even with a flintlock you can jam some down the touchhole faster than you would think.

I'll also say that you can get various cleaning rods that aren't going to break easily if you do end up having to yank on the thing. Brass with T handles, or some people put a thread on the other end of a fiberglass/delrin rod so they can screw a T handle on just in case. Helps with stuck rods, etc. Just be sure you pin the cap with the threads.
 
The error in the engineering of the screw type extractor is that as the screw enters the ball it acts as a wedge and actually increases the diameter of the ball thereby sticking it tighter in the bore.... not exactly what you want if you are trying to remove it.
 
acts as a wedge and actually increases the diameter of the ball ..
Click to expand...
Hmmmm.... effectively acting as an expanding lead-sheath screw-type wall anchor.
I should have thought of that ! :rolleyes:
 
My old shooting group was fond of saving 'no-powder' balls and hanging them from our triggerguards with a length or rawhide; I had 3, and our worst repeat offender had 9.

That being said, we always shot ours free with a bit of 4f. We never found a ball worm that was effective. One company used to market a combination jag/worm that included a drill bit and some brass bore-centering washers. The idea was to drill out the ball, then drive the screw into it. That would theoretically eliminate the 'swelling' problem that Steel Horse Rider mentioned. I almost got one, but decided a few grains of 4f every now and then was cheaper.
 
I have successfully on two occaisions removed a tight stuck patched ball using the screw puller attached to a fibre glass ramrod. I have also shot them by first removing the nipple and trickling powder inside before reinstalling the nipple priming and firing.

Pulling the balls was never easy and it was a somewhat slow careful process. It can be done if you don't use excessive force overdo or rush things.

I do however suggest shooting the thing out as a much easier alternative.
 
Nice to see all the different points of view on this. It looks as though shooting it out works better most of the time.

I thought about the CO2 things, but none of the local stores carry them and it was quicker to go to the gunsmith then order online.

I would ask what the story is with "Bore Butter," but I'm sure I can use the search function and figure that out.
 
:cool:This is "BoreButter":

1 pint Olive oil* (The real lube here)
1/4-lb bees wax (Thickener)
1/2 tsp yellow food color (so it doesn't look a yucky transluscent color)
1/4 tsp Wintergreen oil (so it doesn't smell yucky)

It's a "good" everyday patch lubricant** (and Minnie ball lube). It is NOT
a metal protector/preservative. (Nor does it "season" the barrel.) :rolleyes: :D

as a firing lube, it's probably no better/no worse than the North-South
Skirmisher (tried & true) Minnie ball lube of 3:1 Cricso/Summer (4:1/Winter)
...but you wouldn't swab your barrel out with Crisco and leave it for the Winter, would you ? :what: !!

Best BP bore cleaner bar none: a squirt of dish soap into a pint of warm water.
Best BP bore protectors: BreakFree, WeaponShield, etc (same as those "real gun" CLP oils) :D





* Some use Castor oil here instead, and skip the food color/peppermint oil: aka a variant on "Moose Snot"
** Personally, I'm into 7:1 water/NAPA water soluble cutting oil (squeegeed dry and then air-dried some more) as the "best"/most accurate roundball patch lube there is. But then it needs the bore to be damp-wiped between shots. Slather Bore Butter on the patch for acceptable hunting accuracy and still be able to get a second ball down the barrel w/o cleaning -- depending on how tight the ball/patch combo is to start with. (But is a deer/turkey gonna give you even that time? ;) )
 
Last edited:
We first used a drill bit (threaded 8-32 on the shank) to drill a pilot hole partway into the ball. No wedding. Also, we used straight grain hickory Harrods with the ferrules epoxied and pinned on. Never tried pulling a ball on anything under 45 cal.
More often, a little ffffg dribbled into the cavity under the nipple did the trick. If the first try with 4f doesn't do it, be sure to repeat the ball before the next try.
 
- Pull the nipple
- Fill the resulting void with 3F (or 4F)
- Tap the stock to settle the powder/empty the void through the flashtube and into the chamber around/under the ball.
- Screw the nipple back in
- Cap and fire

Hasn't failed to "poop" the patch/ball combo out of the barrel to date. :)
 
AJumbo said:
My old shooting group was fond of saving 'no-powder' balls and hanging them from our triggerguards with a length or rawhide; I had 3, and our worst repeat offender had 9.
Click to expand...

I have one that I had to pull out with my ball worm. I keep it in my kit as a reminder: Powder, Patch, Ball.
That was before I learned about the powder under the nipple trick. Now I just put a few grains in the flash channel, replace the nipple and I'm back to shooting.
 
About a week ago my oldest son put a 300 gr Hornady XTP in a MMP sabot down my dad's Savage smokeless ML without a powder charge. (Iowa Late Muzzleloader Season, and yes, it was cold). Used a bullet puller to remove both the bullet and the sabot. They each came out separately. Worked pretty well, though it took some time and effort. Hopefully, that work learnt him not to do it again. I think the hollow point nose on the XTP made it easy for the puller to get a start. It went right in. The sabot was harder to get out. Took awhile to punch through the plastic.
 
I did not have to pull a patched ball but I did have to pull a maxi-ball. Mistakenly used powder that had been sitting in an unsealed powder horn for a few years. A cap would not ignite it. I had made my own ramrod from a fiberglass fish arrow so breakage was not an issue. It still took me about a half hour to get it out of the barrel.
 
It may be a little harder to light off, but back in the day when it counted I think the same powder went down the pipe that went into the pan. But they weren't purists, they were merely trying to survive.....
 
...people here speak of using fff or ffff trough the back.
Is there anything wrong with using ff ?
Click to expand...
It won't flow through the flash channel and into the chamber (as readily) as does 3F and the finer 4F.
Higher probability of getting it all jammed up in the nipple area and not getting it through w/o significant effort.
 
I tried, too my regret, shooting a flintlock a few years back. It was so gastly unreliable I learned a few things about stuck balls. I bought a fiberglass ramrod of the proper diameter. Epoxy and pins on both ends. I found appliances, worm, patch holder grooved thingy to hold a patch, T-handle, ball rammer, etc that would screw into each end of the ramrod.
When I encountered a stuck ball, I would screw the T-Handle on one end and the ball puller screw on the other. Using the t-handle for torque, I would embed the screw in the ball. Then I took a long piece of non-stretch 3/16 dacron rope(Tru-Value) and tied several timber hitches around the rod. The other end went around a tree. I then pulled the rope tight and holding the gun instead of the ramrod, gave a mighty jerk. Sometimes it took twice but never more than three times.
I am of the school that believes there was a good reason to go to the percussion caps.
In defense of the flintlock I must say that the next owner cured the problem by spending more on a replacement lock then I spent on the gun.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

T
  • Locked
Cap onto nipple - How far?
Replies
15
Views
843
Rattus58
R
B
  • Locked
small pop and no bang?
Replies
20
Views
1K
St8LineGunsmith
S
S
  • Locked
Help
Replies
24
Views
1K
Macmac
M
TTv2
  • Locked
Recommend me stuff to make the Lyman Plains Pistol more fun
Replies
20
Views
799
woodnbow
woodnbow
R
  • Locked
First muzzleloader questions
Replies
18
Views
2K
EljaySL
E
Back
Top