A Rifle For Large North American Animals

[DM~]

I lived in Alaska for 25years, hunted all over the state.

When it comes to guns, you see a little of everything but by far, mostly bolt-action rifles and a lot of them are 30-06's.

I always got a huge kick out of guys carrying a 44 mag, or 45 Colt or even a 357 mag., but insisted a 30-06 wasn't enough gun for big bears! lol

DM

 

[.308 Norma]

I always got a huge kick out of guys carrying a 44 mag, or 45 Colt or even a 357 mag., but insisted a 30-06 wasn't enough gun for big bears! lol

 

[someguy2800]

I voted 375 H&H because I just built a 375 ruger with this purpose in mind. My 2nd choice would be 338 win mag.

My 375 ruger shoots a 270 grain soft point at 2750 fps from a 21” barrel and I’m basically just above starting loads. I could get at least a couple hundred fps more out of it if I leaned on the load but my experience with hunting cartridges is that somewhere in the 2700-2800 fps range is about the sweet spot I like to be in. I think the 375 ruger is perhaps a little too much of a good thing in that it’s a tad bigger than it really needs to be. The 375 H&H magnum has been well proven to take any animal on earth so turning a magnum into a super magnum isn’t really necessary. I think I could get the performance I was looking for with standard action compatibility by just necking up a 300 win mag to 375 caliber. There does exist a wildcat of a 338wm necked up to 375 caliber called a 375 Taylor, but it doesn’t seam to have caught on. If I were building mine again I think I might persue such a wildcat, but since I have what I have, I’ll keep my 375 ruger and continue loading it mildly.

 

[someguy2800]

I know I'm in the minority but my 1978 Remington BDL chambered in 8mm Rem Mag would probably be my first choice for the larger animals you mentioned. When I originally purchased that rig, I had moose and larger bear on the brain. A close second would be my 300 Weatherby and a very respectable 3rd choice would be my 35 Whelen. If I had my 9.3x62 finished, that would certainly make the conversation as well. No shame to all those mentioning the 30-06... you can certainly handload it with heavier projectiles and newer powders to achieve near magnum performance. 30 caliber bullet choices are so vast, which is why I gave my 300 Wby a close second place.

Ah, 9.3x62, thst would be an excellent choice. I often forget it exists.

444
It works

Can confirm! My 444 is the rifle I want to pick, and it is the rifle I picked on the day I needed it below. I still have to go back to my choice of my 375 though when I start thinking of western elk at 400 yards.

i’m not a hunter and my own rifles are all rimfire so forgive my comment but…if i were to have one centerfire rifle to rule the northern forests it would be the sks 7.62x39. reliable, built like a brick outhouse, accurate enough in my dismal hands, (formerly?) cheap and common, semiautomatic to put lots of fast rounds on target, easy to fieldstrip, even a bayonet if it comes to that. is 7.62x39 sufficiently powerful? isn’t this surplus rifle and caliber already popular among northern woodsmen in the usa, canada, russia?

Sufficient is a good word for 7.62x39. Just as an air cooled Volkswagen Beetle is sufficient for going 70 mph on the freeway. It’s certainly capable of killing large game. I’ve killed 3 deer with mine. I was pretty underwhelmed with the results however so I would consider it the floor for large northern deer or similar size game. I wouldn’t use it on black bear personally. It’s not that you can’t do it, there are just better options.

 

[CraigC]

have to understand a 30-30 is more powerfull than the 44 mag, and no one says the 30-30 is enough for a brown bear

No it ain't. I've taken a lot bigger critters with the .44 than I'd ever attempt with the .30-30.

 

[eastbank]

after all is said and done, a cool marksman who knows where to place that bullet is the key. buffalo shot with a MS 9.3x62.

 

[CraigC]

I always got a huge kick out of guys carrying a 44 mag, or 45 Colt or even a 357 mag., but insisted a 30-06 wasn't enough gun for big bears!

I guarantee a .44 or .45 with the right bullet will break heavy bones and outpenetrate any expanding bullet you can stuff in the `06.

 

[OLDE RETIRED COASTIE]

if you look at muzzle velocity and energy in the reloading manuals you will see the 30-30 has more of both at 50 yards than they do at the muzzle

 

[OLDE RETIRED COASTIE]

most of the professional guides went too the 454 vise 44 mag more umph bigger bullet

 

[someguy2800]

if you look at muzzle velocity and energy in the reloading manuals you will see the 30-30 has more of both at 50 yards than they do at the muzzle

Muzzle energy doesn't tell the tale very well. A 300 grain cast bullet from a 44 mag will out penetrate any expanding bullet you can stuff in a 30/30 even at lower velocity and energy.

 

[DM~]

I guarantee a .44 or .45 with the right bullet will break heavy bones and outpenetrate any expanding bullet you can stuff in the `06.

If your test was on farmer Browns cow, well my dad killed the biggest bulls we butchered with his 22 Win. Mag., one shot did it EVERYTIME.

Anyway, biggest animal I killed with my 44mag. revolver was a bigger bull moose, using a hard cast bullet, I've killed more than one with a 30-06, and loaded with NP's it killed faster, did more damage and penetrated deeper, so I'll go with MY OWN experiences on this subject.

DM

 

[OLDE RETIRED COASTIE]

When I load for my Henry 45-70, I load super hard cast flat nosed bullets, will kill about any thing on the planet and do not need to hot load it either, and from what I read, both GARRETT and others do not hot load either

 

[WisBorn]

I stopped by to see my Dad today and asked him, if you could only have one rifle to hunt all of the game listed in the OP, what would it be?
Without hesitation he said, 30-06.

He also mentioned that when my Grandfather worked in Alaska they had a choice of 12 gauge or 30-06 for protection from wildlife as they built roads.

 

[IJ1981]

I stopped by to see my Dad today and asked him, if you could only have one rifle to hunt all of the game listed in the OP, what would it be?
Without hesitation he said, 30-06.

He also mentioned that when my Grandfather worked in Alaska they had a choice of 12 gauge or 30-06 for protection from wildlife as they built roads.

That is a great anecdote! All the way back to your Granddad, the 30.06 was dominate.

 

[CraigC]

If your test was on farmer Browns cow, well my dad killed the biggest bulls we butchered with his 22 Win. Mag., one shot did it EVERYTIME.

Anyway, biggest animal I killed with my 44mag. revolver was a bigger bull moose, using a hard cast bullet, I've killed more than one with a 30-06, and loaded with NP's it killed faster, did more damage and penetrated deeper, so I'll go with MY OWN experiences on this subject.

DM

Didn't know that brain-shooting livestock was at all comparable to hunting big critters.

if you look at muzzle velocity and energy in the reloading manuals you will see the 30-30 has more of both at 50 yards than they do at the muzzle

Muzzle energy is a meaningless number that exaggerates the importance of velocity in order to sell more of it.

 

[wombat13]

This ^^^^^^^ right here! The ONLY thing more velocity in the same diameter and bullet weight buys you is slightly more max point blank range. A .300WM simply does not give you any meaningful advantage on large, thick skinned, heavy boned game over a .30-06.

I disagree with Craig that an 06 with the right bullet can’t be used effectively on all North American game because it can. And it’s not my first choice for big stuff but I don’t feel under gunned carrying an 06 in big bear country with 180 gr Barnes TSX or 200 gr Nosler or Swift A-Frames. Given my druthers I do now and have in the past carried my Stainless .375 H&H with 270 Gr Barnes TSX. It’s never let me down and I have ultimate confidence in the rifle and the caliber.

Doesn't velocity also give you more margin for error in estimating wind velocity? Just as an example, .300WM pushes a 180 Nosler AB about 400fps faster than .308win. If you misjudge the wind velocity by 5mph, you'll miss by 6.2" at 400 yards with the .308win and by 5" with the .300WM. Another way to look at it, if you are confident you can judge the wind within =/- 5 mph and vitals are 12" (or 6" radius from the bull), then you need to keep your shots within 375 yards with the 308 and inside 450 yards with the .300WM (these are the distances at which misjudging wind by 5mph causes a miss > 6").

Since I don't have much experience judging the wind, this seems like the most significant advantage from higher velocity. With laser range finders we can know distance and adjust accordingly.

 

[Chuck R.]

Doesn't velocity also give you more margin for error in estimating wind velocity? Just as an example, .300WM pushes a 180 Nosler AB about 400fps faster than .308win. If you misjudge the wind velocity by 5mph, you'll miss by 6.2" at 400 yards with the .308win and by 5" with the .300WM. Another way to look at it, if you are confident you can judge the wind within =/- 5 mph and vitals are 12" (or 6" radius from the bull), then you need to keep your shots within 375 yards with the 308 and inside 450 yards with the .300WM (these are the distances at which misjudging wind by 5mph causes a miss > 6").

Since I don't have much experience judging the wind, this seems like the most significant advantage from higher velocity. With laser range finders we can know distance and adjust accordingly.

Agree, which is why I still have a 300WM and a 24" barreled .270Win.

I had a similar discussion with my smith a couple weeks ago. Younger guy, builds a lot of precision rifles, studied under GAP, before striking out on his own. Shop is full of precision rigs with turret scopes etc. he was the guy building the CZ 457s with the Manners stocks for CZ.

He still uses the MPBR method for sighting in his hunting rifles. I was shocked when he said this, so we had about a 15 minute discussion on his hunting philosophy. So I asked him why, and he said it's all about time, or lack of it. Often there isn't time to laze, calculate so it's faster to realize that the animals within your MPBR and take the shot. Same thing with wind drift.

 

[mavracer]

Long story short I don't hunt much anymore and have never been in a position to hunt anything bigger than hogs or whitetail.
My collection runs in the cowboy, mil surp or black rifles but I could probably get by.
My 308 AR while heavy is plenty accurate and as is would probably give me the most range of anything I have.
For a nostalgic hunt I could use my Browning 71 in 348 but would be range limited by the irons. The Marlin 45/70 would be just about as good and I suppose I could mount a scope on it.
The 450 Bushmaster AR would work might put the 1-4x that's now on the Legend back on it.
I also have a 03A3 that I used to copy a Vietnam Veteran's 03A4 and it has a period correct steel 4x Weaver and a 30/06 is never the wrong answer according to Col. Townsend Whelen

 

[Dudedog]

I voted 7mm RM, just because that's the largest I have at the moment.
"Large" is kind of open, a large elk at 300 yards, or a large brown bear at 80?
I have never hunted big bears, and I know they are not bullet proof, but when I think of big bears .375 pops into my mind.....

 

[Gordon]

I guarantee a .44 or .45 with the right bullet will break heavy bones and outpenetrate any expanding bullet you can stuff in the `06.

Well I don't know about that. All my uncle Gill used was 220 core lokts in his 30-06 for the yearly Moose hunt in Maine successfully for twenty years 50 s -60 s . Seriously I could roll up 220 grain Woodleigh flat nose Soft points at 2300-2400 fps and get one heck of a penetration. I think Buffalo Bore has similar that have been tested .

 

[CraigC]

Well I don't know about that. All my uncle Gill used was 220 core lots in his 30-06 for the yearly Moose hunt in Maine successfully for twenty years 50 s -60 s . Seriously I could roll up 220 grain Woodleigh flat nose Soft points at 2300-2400 fps and get one heck of a penetration. I think Buffalo Bore has similar that have been tested .

I'm going to do some testing and report it. I don't think expanding rifle bullets penetrate like people think they do, compared to a heavy solid out of a handgun. In what testing I have done, standard type loads penetrate about a third what a heavy sixgun bullet does.

 

[H&Hhunter]

after owning and shooting game with most of the rifles on the list, i would choose the .375 H&H as i,ve used it on 14-15 species of african game with out the loss of one animal.

The .375H&H is almost never the wrong choice.

 

[WisBorn]

More Myths about the 308

Find the full video here: https://youtu.be/S1Xabhx60Z0More Myths about the 308Subscribe to my channel: http://bit.ly/RonSpomerOutdoorsSubscribeAffiliate Link...

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Just another opinion!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

.62" Jeager with 110 grains of Swiss black powder under the ball. It will shear a steel fence post in half, pretty sure it will kill anything on four legs.

 

[H&Hhunter]

More Myths about the 308

Find the full video here: https://youtu.be/S1Xabhx60Z0More Myths about the 308Subscribe to my channel: http://bit.ly/RonSpomerOutdoorsSubscribeAffiliate Link...

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Just another opinion!

I‘ve seen that video perviously, I can’t argue with him in regards to heavy bullets and the .308. I disagree with his opinion on the .308 being a 200 to 300 yard max elk and deer round. And I’ll take his bet on the .308 working once or twice on elk but try nine and come back to me. I’ve killed plenty of elk a .308 and know better than that. My take on that guy is he’s basing his opinion on paper ballistics and not real world use of a .308. That’s not to say he’s not highly experienced with elk. But his statements don’t align with my real world experiences.

The .308 will do anything the .30-06 will up to about a 180 Gr bullet and definitely with a 150 or 165. When you start getting into the 200 Gr weights a .308 falls flat on its face. If I want something with more reach or knock down than a .308 the.30/06 is not what I’m grabbing.