A Rifle Holster Question For Those With Knowledge Of The Old West

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ECVMatt

ECVMatt

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Good Morning To All,

Beside shooting, hunting, and collecting firearms I also like reading and learning about odd or obscure bits of western history. To this end, I belong to E. Clampus Vitus, a loosely formed historical society. From time to time I research things for my chapter and from that we create historical markers that we then dedicate for the enlightenment of the public. We do this once a year.

Even though my chapter lies further north, I have been interested for some time with "The last great manhunt of the west" or the pursuit of Willie Boy near Banning, California in 1909. While there are many fascinating aspects to this story, one of the smaller details I can't pin down is the "holster" worn by Segundo Chino, the Tribal Police Officer that joined the hunt for Willie Boy.

While most men carried a handgun of some sort, it was the Winchester 1894 in both rifle and carbine form that appears to be most common. Willie Boy and most of his pursuers carried them. Willie Boy carried his by hand for over 10 days. Of all the various manner of carry, Segundo Chino's seems the most unique.

It appears that he had a rifle scabbard fitted to a cartridge belt in a cross draw orientation. While I would not be surprised by a resourceful cowboy tucking their scabbard into a belt, this looks like it was made to be carried in the manner.

I was wondering if any folks with more knowledge than me, probably most, have ever seen a rig like this for the old west?

Thanks in advance for help you can provide.

sengundo-chino.jpg
 
Those old dudes were masters at being resourceful.

They didn’t have much to begin with, so most everything was repurposed or re-used to the point that it was completely unuseable for anything when it went on the trash heap.

I’ve seen several examples in museums of worn out boots being recycled by having the tops cut off of them and sewn up to be used as tool bags for fencing stuff or other small personal items.

it would not surprise me in the slightest to see the carbine belt scabbard above, and would also not be surprised to see this adapted by other cowboys. It may even be a practical solution to a common-enough problem.

Ever see what happens to a carbine in a saddle-mounted scabbard when the horse decides to take a roll in the dust? It ain’t pretty, and usually results in broken stocks and messed up sights and actions.
 
ECVMatt said:
Good Morning To All,

Beside shooting, hunting, and collecting firearms I also like reading and learning about odd or obscure bits of western history. To this end, I belong to E. Clampus Vitus, a loosely formed historical society. From time to time I research things for my chapter and from that we create historical markers that we then dedicate for the enlightenment of the public. We do this once a year.

Even though my chapter lies further north, I have been interested for some time with "The last great manhunt of the west" or the pursuit of Willie Boy near Banning, California in 1909. While there are many fascinating aspects to this story, one of the smaller details I can't pin down is the "holster" worn by Segundo Chino, the Tribal Police Officer that joined the hunt for Willie Boy.

While most men carried a handgun of some sort, it was the Winchester 1894 in both rifle and carbine form that appears to be most common. Willie Boy and most of his pursuers carried them. Willie Boy carried his by hand for over 10 days. Of all the various manner of carry, Segundo Chino's seems the most unique.

It appears that he had a rifle scabbard fitted to a cartridge belt in a cross draw orientation. While I would not be surprised by a resourceful cowboy tucking their scabbard into a belt, this looks like it was made to be carried in the manner.

I was wondering if any folks with more knowledge than me, probably most, have ever seen a rig like this for the old west?

Thanks in advance for help you can provide.

View attachment 964508
Click to expand...


WoW awesome rich photo,, thanks for posting
 
So after doing a little research. I thank for bringing to us this wonderful tale of the west. Forced my self to watch the 1969 movie "tell them willie boy is here" Oh well its Hollywood.. But I did like how they showed the posse member
Segundo Chino with the rifle scabbard holster in the movie. It was a nice touch considering that started this conversation.

So in reading more it is so obvious how this story becomes legend. Young Lovers, clashing cultures, ambiguity about who shot who.. No body at the end.. Hell of a tale of one man against many.

In some regards the question about rather the girl was shot by Willie boy or the posse is right out of the Billy the Kid legend of the killing of Deputy James Carlyle. Some times an armed posse may shoot the wrong person and no one really knows.

From a firearms perspective I did like how Willie Boy used a modern 30-30 rifle caliber. Just kind of shows how quickly modern firearms evolved in the west.

some Youtubes I found. Each has pluses and are nice,,



 
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Those are great finds! The ambush site is about two hours south of my desert house. With any luck I will be up there next week. I guess that I will have to find the actual location and see it for myself.
 
ECVMatt said:
Those are great finds! The ambush site is about two hours south of my desert house. With any luck I will be up there next week. I guess that I will have to find the actual location and see it for myself.
Click to expand...

Good luck, a photo or two would be a nice :)
 
Interesting -- I'm guessing that the crossdraw orientation was to enable drawing a long gun from a scabbard. I can't really see that working with strong-side carry.

I remember seeing the Robert Redford version when it came out in 1969. I thought it was pretty cool, but I was a high school freshman. What did I know?
 
toivo said:
Interesting -- I'm guessing that the crossdraw orientation was to enable drawing a long gun from a scabbard. I can't really see that working with strong-side carry.

I remember seeing the Robert Redford version when it came out in 1969. I thought it was pretty cool, but I was a high school freshman. What did I know?
Click to expand...

If you study a lot of old time especially 19th century photos you'll see almost everyone carried their guns in a crossdraw manner. It just makes sense and is the most convenient way. The holsters were not made canted but they were straight hang worn on the opposite side. Hollywood and then modern variations have completely clouded the way guns were really carried in the old west. Things were not designed as fast draw whatsoever. The whole premise was to have a gun handy without being cumbersome.
 
If modern materials and engineering are OK:

https://eberlestock.com/collections/gun-carry/products/x1a3-pack

I have this one, which has an internal weapon sleeve, that can accommodate a 16” AR15, with LAW Folder, in folded mode, completely hidden:

https://eberlestock.com/collections/gun-carry/products/s45-big-trick

There are also several scabbards, made to be fastened to packs, that, probably, could be rigged to be worn on belts, on the various products pages.

I derive no financial benefit from Eberlestock. Just a customer.
 
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Well I headed on out to the ambush site and got about 90% of the way there. I was able to get to the Rock Corral which is a couple of miles north of the ambush site. There are some road closures that I need to figure out and a possible "Wilderness Area". I did follow the canyon up about a mile from where I parked. I stopped in a small rock break to get out of the wind and found this old cartridge.

IMG_0878.jpg

At first I thought is was a .30/30 and my mind got a bit excited with the prospect of some significance to the whole Willy Boy story. Then I thought about where I was and that I was too far away for it to be connected. I then rubbed off the dirt and and looked at the headstamp.

IMG_0876 (1).jpg
When I figured out it was a .303 Savage I was pretty excited. I have found a ton of old cartridges out in the desert, but never a .303 Savage. The area is located in an area that has deer and probably had Bighorn sheep in times past. The pile of rocks was located above a spring so I am guessing that it is related to hunting. Anyways, I am going to figure out the road situation or come prepared to walk. I will give it another go in the next month or so.
 
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