A story about a good rifle ruined by a bad gunsmith...

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Just WOW:what: Sorry for the loss of a quality firearm. These threads make me happy there a couple GOOD gunsmiths around here to get quality work done when it is beyond my ability. Downside is it may take a year or longer on their waiting list however.;)
 
From the ATL Outdoorsmen Facebook page: "Just wanted to let everyone know, We now have a full service in house Gunsmith. We are now doing Duracoat, Cerakote, Trigger Jobs, and anything else you can think of. Come on by and let us handle all of your Gunsmithing needs." And herein lies the problem: "Gunsmith" is capitalized, meaning it is somebody's name and not necessarily a gunsmith, per se.

I am neither, but I have removed dozens of hopelessly frozen screws, broken off EZ-Outs, and broken taps from guns brought to me by "gunsmiths" who don't have the skills or the patience for this sort of thing. Typically I index the screw hole on the mill, spot it with a carbide end mill, center drill, and gently drill with a reverse drill bit, all the while knowing how deep I can go beforehand. Half the time it comes out during this process alone, but if not, I step up the drill size until I'm pretty close to the root thread, then peel the remaining pieces off with a dental pick. If Loctite has been used, I oftentimes heat up an 8D common nail held in a pair of needle nose ViseGrips to a reddish color and carefully hold it onto the stubborn screw to transfer the heat. The gun, of course, is always covered with contact paper or masking tape so that the surfaces are not marred by the vises or tool bits.

Broken taps and screw extractors present a different level of challenge. Before I had access to an Electric Discharge Machine (EDM), I used a carbon rod from an ordinary D battery mounted in the quill of a drill press, then sharpened to a point. Using low current applied to the frame of the drill press and (insulated) subject piece, one can use gentle pressure to erode away the broken tap. I seldom have to resort to the EDM.

Generally speaking, "gunsmiths" in my area want to mount scopes and bolt accessories onto black rifles. Removing a screw demands patience, good hands, and a "can-do" sort of attitude that cannot be taught in gunsmith school. Above all, Primum non nocere, that is, "First, do no harm."
 
I can't believe they tried to tell you that was OK. I'd have been tempted to grab a box of .30-06 off the counter and ask Andrew to shoot it to demonstrate how I was wrong.

Finding a decent gunsmith is nightmarish work. Even when you can find one who does good work, getting him to return it within four times what his original timeline estimate was is near impossible. It is one reason I hate to buy any firearm I can't do most of the work on myself and one reason I love the AR15.
 
BTW, and as an aside, when my carpenter's hat is on, I use a Milwaukee impact screw gun to drill holes and drive wood screws. Though battery powered, it has an impact rat-tat-tat-tat action that lets it perform like its big-league brothers. I successfully used it to remove a bunch of frozen torx screws from a motorcycle carburetor last week after breaking one bit with a conventional rachet handle. The impact action seems to have an almost magical effect on freeing up frozen screws, and I made a mental note to myself that I would try it on my next firearm screw removal adventure.
 
wow, thanks for the warning. that is pretty unbelievably dangerous; that they drilled a hole in the chamber, and then that they wanted to weld on the chamber.

i don't like the throw too much mud at people who are maybe trying hard to make a living in a tough business, but those guys are going to get somebody's face blown off. and for them to be so dodgy about it doesn't reflect well either.
Yeah, no doubt! That kind of shady and incompetent work is worthy of warning others about.

Unbelievable.
 
They replied to my review on FaceBook and YellowBook...there are too many lies in here to list...and I didn't even know there was such a thing as green Loctite? They first said I used red...now its green, lol...I used blue, I'm not color blind...I'm a truck driver, tested for color blindness during my DOT physical...even saying they only drilled the other screws, yada, yada....its all BS...but I told them before they gave me the measly $150 that I was going to tell what they did, and there was no agreement to do otherwise...and it'll be a cold day in haydes before I go back to that store for anything (also told them that!)...they're just doing what I knew they would, trying to make me the liar...I've already lost my rifle, lying about them won't bring it back.

Atl Outdoorsmen WOW!!! This is the most untruthful story… You asked about removing 4 screws you messed up, and dropped it off without care. Hard to believe you would do that, if that was your baby and competition rifle or whatever else you said in so short of time. Plus you were told about all the possibilities that could happen anytime you work on a gun, with the screws and scope base in such bad shape. Knowing that the barrel would be put in a vise etc., chances of it being scratched, needing to be most likely reblued after drilling on the scope bases to get to the screws. What stands out the most is that only one screw hole was drilled and just the middle of the screw. This was done in order to remove the screw and save the threads. This was the second one back, not even the hole you claim this happened to. The screws were extracted by heating and removing. We found it odd that it was mentioned there was ONE drop of Blue Loctite used on the screws, considering they had green Loctite all over them. Which must have been High Strength green Loctite used for permanent applications, considering how bad the screws where messed up. Most folks would stop after messing up one screw or two, but yours had all four screws and the base messed up beyond believe. We took the gun in and extracted the screws. YOU PICKED UP THE GUN AND SIGNED THE PAPERWORK NO PROBLEM. Only to show up later saying we drilled out the chamber. The gunsmith was asked about this and said no, I extracted the screws, only drilling enough in order to grip the screws and turn them out. The scope mounts need to be drilled in order to grip the screws etc. He never had a reason to inspect the gun looking for anything else. So now you are asking for a new gun that was way more than the value of the barrel itself. The gunsmith has worked on many guns over the years. He is known by many as the guy they call to fix everything gun related or not. He has also been a preacher of the same church for 9 years. SO, when the preacher tells us “no sir I didn’t drill through”, then we believe him. In order to go above and beyond customer service, we gave you the benefit of doubt. This was our only mistake. We offered to fix the gun for you, but you insisted on a new gun. Remember, we never saw a whole gun just parts. So we offered to help you out and get you a new barrel. If you call Winchester, they will tell you that their replacement barrel for a model 70 is available through Douglas Barrels. FN Manufacturing does not sell replacement barrels for this model of gun. Speaking to Winchester, their service department informed us that there is a possibility that it could have been a manufacturing error. They actually said they have seen a few like this come in. Anyone that questions this should call and ask, the number is 1-800-333-3288. We then offered to ship it to Winchester and have it repaired at no charge to you. You requested for the gun not to be sent back to Winchester for examination/repair. RED FLAG. Still trying to offer the best service, we offered to buy the whole gun, just bring in the parts. In return you told us “there is no gun”? All we are hearing is money to buy a new gun. We offered to help by refunding your gunsmithing service and then some, in order for you to have someone else fix what you claimed we did. Just to satisfy the customer giving you the benefit of doubt that the customer is always right. We tried to help in many different ways. All of which were declined, until we offered to hand you cash. Even after we said, we know that you will no longer shop with us or use our services but we tried to help. You then said no that is not true and you still may shop our store. So all this was said, then once you have cash in hand, the slander begins.


The FaceBook group...Tri Cities gun trader... https://www.facebook.com/groups/434711343292501/628958260534474/?notif_t=group_comment_reply
 
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There are much better places around the Tri-Cities to buy guns from...and much better gunsmiths too, wish I had known this beforehand.


They have only been open since the first of the year, that should have been the first red flag.

Can you provide the names of these other gunsmiths? I just sent a barreled receiver to Michigan for a threading job because I couldn't find anybody within 100 miles of Johnson City to do it.
 
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I was given a name on another forum of a gunsmith in the area...I'll have to look it up in a few minutes...and you're right, should have known better than to let a new shop do the job...lesson learned!


Also...I'm not gonna argue with them on there...just makes us both look like idiots...I've told the story, I'll let the ones who read it decide who they believe.
 
A lot of 'he said, he said' in this deal. I'm not surprised at their rebuttal to any comments that you have posted on local or national sites; they have to protect themselves from bad reviews and posts that damage their reputation.

I'm sorry that you have had such a bad experience. What I take away from your situation is to inspect the work very carefully before leaving the shop that has done any service and to be careful with whom I have do work on any firearm.
 
What I take away from your situation is to inspect the work very carefully before leaving the shop that has done any service and to be careful with whom I have do work on any firearm.

Then I have succeeded in all I had hoped to accomplish....which is to prevent this from happening to somebody else...via any "gunsmith".
 
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They replied to my review on FaceBook and YellowBook...there are too many lies in here to list...and I didn't even know there was such a thing as green Loctite? They first said I used red...now its green, lol...I used blue, I'm not color blind...I'm a truck driver, tested for color blindness during my DOT physical...even saying they only drilled the other screws, yada, yada....its all BS...but I told them before they gave me the measly $150 that I was going to tell what they did, and there was no agreement to do otherwise...and it'll be a cold day in haydes before I go back to that store for anything (also told them that!)...they're just doing what I knew they would, trying to make me the liar...I've already lost my rifle, lying about them won't bring it back.




The FaceBook group...Tri Cities gun trader... https://www.facebook.com/groups/434711343292501/628958260534474/?notif_t=group_comment_reply
According to what they said they tried to do everything to fix it right and you declined their offers. I do not understand your thinking
 
There are a lot of people out there who call themselves a gunsmith but aren't.

I learned this the hard way as well. Luckily for me, it was on a cheapo $150 CVA muzzleloader and not a $2k+ custom rifle. Man, I feel sick for you.

He has also been a preacher of the same church for 9 years. SO, when the preacher tells us “no sir I didn’t drill through”, then we believe him.

Ahhh, the old, "I'm a preacher/christian" BS to make people trust you. Any time someone comes out of the gate talking about being a preacher or tries to convince me of how good a "christian" they are, I immediately check to make sure my wallet is still in my pocket. Then I make sure and not give the shyster any of my business.
 
Ridgerunner if that had been my rifle my attorney would be talking to them and they would be paying for a new FN barrel to be installed. The one thing they do not want the public to hear about is a law suit for incompetent gunsmithing. Whether they win or lose their reputation would be down the toilet. Chances are their corporate offices would be more than happy to have FN do everything needed to restore your rifle plus a little extra to keep you as a customer.
 
BTW, and as an aside, when my carpenter's hat is on, I use a Milwaukee impact screw gun to drill holes and drive wood screws. Though battery powered, it has an impact rat-tat-tat-tat action that lets it perform like its big-league brothers. I successfully used it to remove a bunch of frozen torx screws from a motorcycle carburetor last week after breaking one bit with a conventional rachet handle. The impact action seems to have an almost magical effect on freeing up frozen screws, and I made a mental note to myself that I would try it on my next firearm screw removal adventure.

On the impact gun, the torque comes from the center of the tool, the power is in line with the anvil. On the ratchet, the torque is generated from the handle, which is way off set from the handle.

Anyways, I think part of this problem was caused by the torx tool breaking.
I already noted the crummy gunsmith, but now I'm curious of the brand of the torx bit you used.
 
Sorry to hear about the butchery :(. I did want to add, that the barrel likely could have been saved, though it would obviously not be a barrel you'd be particularly proud of. Barrels with holes drilled into the chamber and bore can be salvaged successfully, by tapping the hole, installing a set screw with a carefully-profiled interior face, welding/brazing it into place (which is not anywhere close to as big a risk as everyone makes it out to be; barrels aren't typically through-hardened anywhere near hard enough to make a small heat effected zone cause issues), then touching up the chamber with a reamer and polishing it perfect. It is commonly done on builds made on parts kits with hard to source demilled barrels.* The smaller the hole and thicker the material, the better, so a scope-screw hole on the centerline would be a good candidate.

But again, that would not result in a barrel you'd be proud of, even if it shot perfectly, and would require someone with a lot more skill than the bozos who through-drilled it. I would have followed up on the "Winchester did it" just on the off-chance that they might have (and would obviously have a warranty replacement) but only after getting what little satisfaction there was to be had from the store.

I would have demanded they test fire the gun (remotely; no need to turn a farce into a tragedy) and sign a sworn statement the gun was safe to fire by their standards, just so you could blow that out over the 'net. :evil:

TCB

*Goryunov barrels are usually drilled out in parts kits. A while back, a set were imported that had had an extra hole drilled in a hidden spot under the gas tube, which nearly went unnoticed by people fixing them up (apparently the vent was for some stupid blank firing attachment, or something).
 
Winchester didn't do it...I've had the rifle for almost 4 years...and fired a few hundred rounds through it.

And I didn't want a pieced together rifle...this is the rifle below...it's not something just thrown together.

2012-11-16_14-47-36_692.jpg
 
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Ridgerunner if that had been my rifle my attorney would be talking to them and they would be paying for a new FN barrel to be installed.

Right. And you would be paying your attorney 3x what the rifle cost. I know this. I work for the county now (Prosecuting Attorney's Office) but I started out as a paralegal in a private law firm. One of my jobs was to contact potential clients and discuss the terms of the attorney/client agreement including the initial retainer and hourly fees. Not one time did I ever quote a retainer fee of less than $2k and an hourly rate of less than $175. That adds up in a hurry. Your initial retainer would be what he had in the rifle. And at $175-$200 an hour it would go quickly. By the time it got to a courtroom it would cost at least that again.

Like one of my mentors in the legal field once told me, "Right aint always smart."
 
My dad taught me years ago to put red nail polish on the base screws and it works and I have never bought a tube of lok tite of any color. Sorry for your ordeal. I have never driven the hardest bargain but I think a new shilen barrel, re drill and tap to bigger threads and a refinish of the receiver was in order. I think that if the job is going to be challenging and damage could result the smith should talk with you face to face beforehand. Kind of like what the medical field calls informed consent.
 
I am glad that this got posted. I live in the same area and now know to avoid them like the plague. That is a terrible way to do business. Sorry about your rifle.
 
Wow, sorry to hear that Ridgerunner, Ive stopped in that place to check them out. Haven't done any business with them though. Unfortunately all the good gunsmiths in the tri-cities area are now deceased. There are a couple of new upstarts that claim to be full service gunsmiths, but I have yet to run into anyone that could recommend them, and I've lived here most of my 60 years. Funny thing is that the previous gun shop that was in that very location, I won't mention the name but most people in the Johnson City area will know who it is, got themselves into a heap of trouble with costumers and vendors.
 
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