Accessorize or leave it be?

[CZ52GUY]

This is a rhetorical question based on a number of threads I've read in this forum. I'm not asking for advice, but posting the question to hopefully engage in some respectful and productive discussions which may be useful to new shooters, or even emerging shooters.

First by way of disclosure, I'm a pistol/carbine guy by emphasis. I run several thousand rounds of each, I load multiple pistol calibers, and .223 on my 550B. My focus is primarily competition/tactical style shooting (which some would say are contradictory disciplines, but that's a debate for another thread). I've been a casual shotgun shooter over the years and over the past year or so have become completely enamored with my shotgun. As compared to the pistol and carbine I find the operation to be more challenging, which only whets my appetite for more.

I've taken multiple classes, local instructors in my area, and my skill level for all platforms I'd say is quite competent, acknowledging that Shotgun trails Pistol and Carbine because of the opportunity of additional range time for those two platforms. Using objective standards such as Federal Air Marshall qual', IDPA Classifier, Gunsite/Insight/Chuck Taylor standards, etc., I generally do pretty well.

I dry-fire religiously and get out to my local club as often as I can. I'm a certified RO and considered part of the Defensive Shooting discipline leadership.

I have not fired a shot in anger and hope I never have to, but as much as one can know that has not been in that circumstance, my commitment is to protect my family by any means necessary if the time comes, and my shooting is geared toward successfully protecting those I hold dear. By profession I am not LE or Military.

My cards on the table...

...all that being said, there are strong opinions expressed especially in this forum biased toward the dangers of accessorizing. Some of which I believe are legitimate:

1) Accessories don't buy you skill - AGREED. Skill is earned on the range and by dry-fire, and through disciplined acquisition of knowledge, whether by formal instruction or self-taught. You cannot with any accessory buy yourself abilities you have not already earned.

2) Accessorizing can ruin a perfectly good gun - AGREED. Accessories that have only cosmetic virtues without practical value can detract from the capability of a firearm.

Sentiments with which I disagree, not expressed by all, and trying to keep to The High Road, addressing my comments toward the statements, not intending to disparage any individual:

1) Accessories are only of interest to "posers" and "mall ninjas". "Real men" keep their shotty "bone stock". Accessories and customizations of firearms often serve a very useful purpose to "fit the weapon" to the shooter and their intended use thereof.

2) Accessories are inherently unreliable and will inevitably let you down when you really need them.

I accessorize for purpose. Using my Mossberg 500 as a reference object, and working from rear of weapon to business end:

1) 12" LOP Stock - I'm 5-7 with raptor arms. My Hogue 12" LOP stock is comfortable, and allows me to cycle the action easily without an awkward reach. I am also able to conduct rapid reloads by doing a 1/4 turn left while keeping the stock in my shoulder. 1/4 turn back and I'm up and ready to go. IT FITS.

2) Single Point sling attachment & sling - the attachment provided by a friend, it lets me hang the shotty rather then benching or bagging all the time. I can keep it close, ready for my turn to shoot, and I find it handy doing transitions to pistol. The sling? An AK sling adapted to single point which fits my frame, allows for comfortable mount without excess slack, and it doesn't hang excessively low. At the same time, I can transition to pistol without taking the stock in my chin either. IT FITS.

3) TacStar Side-Saddle - With attention to detail on the installation, this accessory has served me well. The shotgun being a comparatively limited capacity firearm, it keeps me reserve supply close to the chamber & tube. For my intended use, the rapid availability of spare ammo' on the gun is essential. IT FITS my needs.

4) EOTech holosight on Weaver Mount - After shooting 1000's of rounds through carbines with EOTech or Bushnell (essentially identical reticle), it is a FAMILIAR sight picture. It has been my experience that the more FAMILIAR the sight picture, the more rapidly one may BELIEVE the sight picture and avoid excess "dwelling". With attention to detail on the installation of the mount, the attachment of the optic, and sighting it in with appropriate loads, IT FITS my needs. I keep high quality lithium batteries in it with spares in close proximity.

5) Mossberg Factory Heat Shield - considered a "glamour gadget" by some, it's an extremely useful device for those who wish to avoid a "barrel branding" when doing inverted reloads (an alternative technique I use when loading from a forearm shell carrier). IT FITS my needs.

6) Surefire dedicated forend - I will verify every target before firing, period. In a low-light circumstance I have no reason to expect that I'll be in a combat scenario where a negligent light discharge results in incoming mortar/RPG/artillary. Properly applied white light is something that is non-negotiable for me for a fighting circumstance. The Surefire has proven to be rock solid reliable. IT FITS my needs.

7) TruGlo tritium front sight - While the EOTech is wonderful, and the batteries are rated for up to 1000 hours, Murphy may be an ever present adversary. This front sight is easy on my old eyes to pick up, and has held up well over multiple vigorous live fire sessions. IT FITS my needs.

My emphasis of IT FITS is based on my experience that not all of us are the same, it's next to impossible that stock factory configurations will FIT all of us.

The long and the short of the point I'm trying to make, serious shooters often customize their firearms including shotguns. They do so with care and respect for intended use.

Are there folks out there going for "a look", reading what the latest SWAT/Military configuration is being offered and flattering those they admire by imitation with a similarly configured shotty? ABSOLUTELY!

But is a fully "accessorized" shotgun objective evidence that it's operator is some "mall ninja poser"...better think again.

Fellow THR's...you are visiting a forum with a motto' Molon Labe, a statement of independence, defiance, and determination based on commitment. Let your quest for knowledge and application thereof be based on that type of character. To those more seasoned traditionalists who often share knowledge in a less than balanced manner, I would respectfully urge a level of perspective and context, understanding that overgeneralizations serve not your interests, or those who seek guidance from you.

For the "seekers" who consider themselves serious shooters, accessories require an extra level of commitment. They should fit a specific purpose. They should work in harmony with each other and the intent of the platform. Care needs to be taken in their installation, use, and long term maintenance. An accessory is a commitment to a trade-off. What to you gain? What do you lose? What is required from you to get the value from it?

These are the factors I believe which should determine whether the serious shooter puts something on his shotty (or any other platform).

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[Robo_Railer]

Especially #6. For any home defense/law enforcement use, I think a good attached flashlight isn't an "accessory," it's a necessity. Positive target identification can save you a world of future heartburn. Having it built-in means one less thing to grab-and-bring, whether one is getting out of bed or out of a patrol vehicle, and one less thing to fumble with when bringing the weapon to bear. If a brief but bright light just freezes an intruder/suspect in his tracks and disorients him so much that he offers no resistance, then it's worth every penny paid for it.
If any other SG owner wants to just flip on a light in the room, that's up to them. When on duty after dark, I want to be able to challenge somebody from behind cover and from behind concealment provided by a "wall of light." I think that's also a good plan if I get launched out of bed at oh-dark-thirty by the sound of glass breaking. In the latter case, I might have only the light to stand behind.
Having been the originator of at least one of the threads CZ52' mentioned, I have to say I've gotten some good input from him and other readers. Not only have most of those replying expressed their likes and dislikes about certain add-on parts, but why they do or don't like something. An "It's okay, but be aware of [fill in the blank]" is way better than "I bought two!" or "It's a piece'a junk!"
With that said, I'm still planning to do a lot of BA/UU/R, partly to make sure anything I add to my Mossberg or Ithaca works as advertised. Anything that seems like it might become an impediment, and can't be modified to do what I want it to do, will get discarded real fast.

Well said, CZ52GUY.

 

[Hawk]

Interesting observations. I've found the crowd here to be conspicuously "live and let live" - I couldn't even get them stirred up offering my bald assertion that ported shotgun barrels made negative sense...

But since you've brought it up...

LOP - I'd tend to agree, for those of us more akin to real knuckle draggers, the opposite of your shorty also works - my "working" 870 has the traditionally styled Choate with all the spacers - LOP just south of 15" but I like it - reminds me of the 870TB and SP3 Sporting both of which, I believe, are in the mid-14's.

Weapon light - there are those of us, probably a minority, that will simply never feel comfortable covering that which we wish to identify with the weapon's muzzle - runs contrary to the "know your target" rule. In my case, it'd probably turn out to be drunken cousin Ned anyway. Also, some would observe that there's little functional difference between a "wall of light" and a "really bright aiming point giving away your position".

To each their own - Surefire sure moves a ton of those things. We can, however, probably agree that if a weapon light is to be used it should be of the highest quality possible. The success enjoyed by Surefire has spawned a seemingly endless array of alternatives that are more akin to duct taping a mag light to the barrel. IOW, if it's to be done, do it right - rather like the rig you use. IMHO, a poor weapon light is far worse than no light at all.

I harbor a certain fascination with EO sights but haven't yet actually tried the things; perhaps someday. Also, I'll confess to a certain curiosity over those spring-loaded, pivoted, pistol grip thingies (Knoxx?) - can't picture myself with one but they seem well thought out and engineered.

There may possibly be some accessories that the majority will always consider to be affectation - my personal nomination is an aftermarket heat shield. It looks "cool", is probably reasonably harmless, but likely traps dust, makes cleaning needlessly complicated and likely doesn't quite reach "zero" on the cost vs. benefit table.

One can undoubtedly enhance one's weapon, or at least personalize it advantageously by well thought out accessories. One can also ruin an otherwise serviceable piece. I'll join those that suggest that accessorizing before burning a bunch of ammo is backwards. After the ammo is burned, sound decisions are more likely.

 

[scout26]

CZ52Guy, excellent post.

It's great that you have found items that enhance your skills and abilities and fits your needs.

What I believe you are replying to is the fact that often on this forum we get the "I just bought a shotgun and never even touched a gun before in my life, what accessories do I need to buy so that I be a Superdupertacticool Special Forces/Ranger/Force Recon/Seal/Mall Ninja Wannabe-Poser." threads/questions.

I, personally, and others here, try to guide people to:

1. Getting a shotgun that properly fits. Much like you did with the shortened LOP on yours.
2. Training and instruction: Whether training for serious Social/HD work or some informal instruction at your local range or club on how to turn evil orange frisbee's into dust, you can never learn too much.
3. BA/UU/R. If nothing else getting it properly broken in and some practice/experience and learning the basic MOA for your shotgun.

If then that person finds a NEED for additional piece of equipment, then G_d Love 'em, go for it. But far to many people drop a ton of $$$ on equipment upfront hoping to buy skills and experience and then the firearm just sits in a safe or under the bed, never to be used in training, practice or even taken for fun and (clay)games. I believe that we encourage people to develop the software first then work on hardware.

I enjoy "I put a (blank) on my shotgun and it works great/is a piece of junk." threads. While my HD shotgun in not quite "Bone Stock", I carefully consider the trade-offs to be made with any potential accessories.

I too, hope to never have to use my HD shotgun in anger. I would hope that no-one on THR would ever have to either. But I am prepared to defend home and hearth should the need arise, but my plan is to relay on the skills I've obtained rather then the latest high-speed/low-drag jimcrack geegaw device advertised in Guns and Ammo .

Dave/Lee/SM, et al. If I've spoken out of turn, then I apologize.

 

[CZ52GUY]

re: Replies

I have been amazed at the number of responses to the "I'm thinking of this accessory" threads that are reflexively DON'T DO IT .

Again, not trying to disparage any individual, but because of my dimensions and expectations, I seldom find something out of the box that fits my needs. In forums such as this, I'm drawn to the "I'm thinking of this accessory" threads because I've researched many, and have a keen eye for what some of the guys in my practice group are using.

I'm in full agreement that you try on the shoes and walk in them a little bit before springing for the orthotic.

Accessories are a trade-off, and "getting it right" is often an iterative process of try/buy test, adjust, integrate, assimilate, etc., etc., etc.

The wrong accessory is never a good thing, but the right one (my 12" LOP stock was what saved my Mossberg 500 from the Trader's Desk) can make all the difference in the world.

I think one of the other things that happens too often on forums is what I would call "post count extrapolation". New members assume too often the higher the post count, the greater the knowledge of the poster, and that the inverse is true. Therefore, assumptions are made in both directions that may be counterproductive to both parties.

Magazines and slick advertisements can be entertaining and informative, but I'm not sure I would elevate them to educational status. They provide beacons to opportunities for exploration, but the range, or dry-fire room...that's where the learning happens.

I would also nit pick slightly to suggest that the accessory should allow one to better exploit skills already honed vs. being a skill enhancer. It's semantics, but I think important in setting expectations when one plunks down their hard earned $$$.

Finally, while I won't dispute the merits of BA/UU/R, I'd suggest that a concurrent philosophy should be:
1) Seek out knowledge - find good instruction
2) Build skill - develop a competency with the instruction received, most often through live-fire drills AND dry-fire
3) Apply skill - include some sort of scenario work in your training regimen which requires spontaneous application of skills developed (this is where your brain learns what to do when, and instincts are developed which you may have to depend on some day)
4) Repeat indefinitely - you're never too good to learn something new, especially from those who look up to you (beware the teacher who doesn't learn something from their students)

That approach will make the BA/UU/R investment pay dividends.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[Jack2427]

No disagreement with what works. But what works on the range, may not work in a 'tactical' environment.
Look at what the real pros use on their shotguns, you will almost never see a side sadlle on a "working" SG. The reason is that you do not want to bolt anything onto the side of the receiver that might stress the receiver-even the strongest steel receiver can be deformed by the slightest constricting movement. Butt cuffs will not affect the reliability of the weapon, even semi autos.
From my expereience at formal schools, use of the "tactical" sling is usually what hangs the gun(and operator) up during movement. A sling may make carrying or hanging the weapon easier as in standing for long pereiods at a roadblock or checkpoint, but shoud be reconfigured for movement or concealment of the operator. There is a reason the military uses slings the way they do.
The forend light does have application and uses. But why do the military and other pros not use them a lot? Reason is that the light is then restricted to the weapon, gives an aiming point for the BG, and if the light goes tango uniform, you are now back to your hand held light, with some extra weight out there on your weapon. And in hard usage, the light is very vulnerable to getting struck/broken.
LOP is surely an individual preference, mine is shorter-for use with armor. The Marines have made a good call with their new Benelli as it has the "slider" which can adapt to most personnel. But that same stock configuration makes the weapon almost useless as a striking weapon, and IIRC, the SG is a close range weapon.
Not throwing water(cold or otherwise) on anyones choice for a HD weapon, but what works at home, in a protected storage/use environment, does not translate into the same thing in the field for actual tactictal or survival usage.
My preference is any reliable pump gun (Remington, Mossberg, Ithaca, Winchester/FN) with a butt cuff for 5-6 extra rounds(in case I lose my belt/vest ammo carrier), a front night sight, rear ghost ring, I sometimes use a speed feed stock with 4 last ditch rounds in addition to the butt cuff, but it does make some guns seem unhandy and too butt heavy. And an extended mag appropriate for the barrel length.

 

[CZ52GUY]

re: Professional vs. Private Use

Good post!

Great observations on trade-offs. In a professional environment, you'll hear differing opinions. Up my way, they're a little less averse as a group to some of the accessories then your description of almost never. I'd also say that aversion is somewhat generational in nature. The more comfortable the professional has gotten with his/her system over time, the less likely they are inclined to want to mess with it, and who can blame them.

Trade-offs include careful consideration of how any accessory will react within expected environment of use. We practice to simulate those environments as best we can and to make note of how both the Hardware & the Software perform in those conditions. Sometimes, the addition of new Hardware will require a Software adjustment. Sometimes, the trade-off will come down on the side of the accessory, sometimes it won't.

Careful consideration in advance may save a few $$ along the way, and trying out the gear of shooting colleagues can give you a chance to test drive without getting out your credit card.

If something isn't broke, don't seek a solution to a non-existent problem. At the same time, we participate in a field where innovation is constant. Some of it is superfluous, but some has real substance. What I'm suggesting is that THR's consider the trade-offs with eyes wide open. Reflexively poo-pooing everything is no better than reflexively plunking down money for the latest wiz-bang. They are two sides of the same coin, intentional ignorance.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[Dave McCracken]

I know my reputation's pretty non addons, but I only cavil when folks try to make gadgetry compensate for inadequate training and practice.

Have what you want on your defensive shotguns. As long as they show wear marks YOU put on them you'll hear no sniveling from me.

My personal HD 870 has....

A standard length stock, which for me serves well. I'm XXL. Good Rempad.

A peep sight with the aperture removed. The original Ghost Ring.

A two shot extension to match the 18" barrel.

Standard sling studs. African carry works for me.

A Side Saddle.

A clean sub 4 lb trigger.

A forcing cone of about 1 1/2". Chokeless barrel.

And a history of perfect performance going back darn near 50 years. Maybe 20K rounds in all.

Total curb weight, about 9.5 lbs.

Backup HD 870 and Venison Acquistion Tool is similar. 20" barrel, three shot extension, no S/S.

 

[CZ52GUY]

re: Dave's HD 870

Sounds like a solid configuration, arrived at over some period of time, verified by extensive go-bang.

Dave, what if anything did you experiment with that didn't work, and why? Also, anything you hang on your HD Shotty now that may have surprised you some time ago? In other words, anything on there now that you might have previously said...I don't think I'd ever...

If you're willing, allowing the THR readers to get into your thought process, and your range process for verifying suitability to task, and integration into your system could be quite useful...teaching to fish if you will.

Safe Shooting,

CZ52'

 

[scout26]

Just some detail on my HD shotgun, and like CZguy I'll go from back to front:

It started life as a Maverick 88 with a PGO and 18.5" barrel. Bought from a fellow Army Officer back in 1989 who was being transferred to a gun unfriendly place. It now has:

I replaced the PGO with a Mossberg wood stock and a good pad to a 13" LOP (call me Mr. Alligator Arms)

Replaced the Maverick trigger group with Mossberg one. Yep, no tang or bolt safety on this gun. Probably could use a trigger job as it's just a OEM/factory spec one that I got at gunshow for $7.00.

No side saddle, didn't like the extra weight or the way it made the gun twist/lean. I practice ambidextrious (since I expect to looking around a corner from one side or the other, better to practice shooting from both sides) with this gun, so a butt cuff screws up trying to shoot from one side or the other. If 3 rounds of 00 buck and 2 rounds of slugs don't stop the goblins then I'm already retreating back to the bedroom from the hallway. By that time Mrs Scout should have the kids in there with her and she and my daughter should have their 20ga Bantam Mossberg's out of the safe, stoked and ready from behind our bed to cover my retreat and reload. Plus the cavalry should be on the way.

It still has the original Maverick black synthetic forearm with the deep groves vs. replacing it with checkered wood. I figure my palms might be a tad sweaty and this will provide a better grip. (Yep, it's a ugly gun, wood stock and synthetic forearm. )

It still has the 18.5" Cyl bore barrel with just a bead. S&B 00 buck patterns real nice and Brenneke slugs are the best groups. Max Fighting distance in the from the end of the hallway to/through the far wall of living room is 27 Ft. (call it 10 yards), distances shrink if I have to retreat. (call it 7 yards from back edge of bed to door in master bedroom.)

Once the attack beagle sounds the alarm (or gets woken up or when breaking glass falls on him while he's asleep. ) The bedroom, hallway and other lights are coming on as I move into those areas/rooms. (Gotta see to open the gun safe, kids leave toys where you will step on them, dog may go to sound of the threat or may position himself to where I will trip over him.) As I move to deny access to the sleeping area of the house, Mrs Scout will be gathering up kids and moving them to a position of cover and concealment (behind our bed), calling the Cavalry (aka 911), and arming herself and my 13 yo daughter from the gun safe in our bedroom.

I ditched the sling as it only served to get caught on door handles and other wise get in the way. Like Jack said, I'm not standing guard a roadblock for hours on end, I'll be moving and potentially shooting.

While it doesn't have the 20K+ rounds through it that Mr. McC's has, it probably has 2-3k from practice, trap, and skeet. Every 3-4 months it gets a trip to the range to fire off/practice with the current load of service ammo, a round or two of trap or skeet, a good cleaning, and reloaded (cruiser ready) with new service ammo, before going back into the safe.

My vension procurer, pheasant whacker, turkey buster, rabbit tumbler, and clay breaker is a Mossberg 500, so the MOA is the pretty much the same as the HD gun. Although sometimes one of the old SxS's gets to go out for a day in the Pheasant and Rabbit fields.

So it's not "Bone Stock", but it's pretty bare bones and butt ugly. Like you said: "It FITS my needs."

 

[CZ52GUY]

re: Scout Shotty

Thanks,

I like the detail and the rationale.

Keep Safe,

CZ52'

 

[foghornl]

My HD shotty started out as a rather Plain Jane Maverick 88, in what I call the "field-n-woods" configuration...
28" plain (no vent-rib) single bead modified choke barrel.

In its current HomeLand Security*** configuration...has the 18-1/2" plain cylinder-bore barrel. 5 rounds of Rem 3" Mag #4 buck in the tube (Cruiser-Ready), with 5 PMC brand slugs in a butt-cuff.

Been considering moving that barrel to the "new-2-me" Mossberg 500A, because I do like the tang safety that the Mossy has, over the trigger-guard safety of the Maverick. This 500A was my late father-in-law's shotty. It had sat unfired, empty & unloved under the living room sofa for at least 12 years, mag follower was stuck, and generally fairly cruddy inside the receiver. It is now cleaned/lubed-n-tuned as it should be, with a few 'character marks' on it.

***My shotty provides Security for my Home and Land.

 

[sm]

CZ52GUY
Excellent Original Post and subsequent replies.

Since my name came up and often attached to the "bone stock" crowd and often post quotes such as One cannot buy skill and targets -

My role , if you will, often has been to instruct new folks to shotguns - or re-aquaint those that have been away for a bit, and some physically limited folks.

Some may be wanting to into/ back into clay games, bird hunting. Some want the concepts for all around, including clays, hunting, and Serious Situations.

I was raised, taught, mentored a certain way. Keep it simple and have a baseline.
A bone stock shotgun, a variety of these allows student to understand how gun fit comes into importance, the various platforms, how they work and all.

Again, this may be a kid, teengager, single lady, single mom, wife, someone recovering from surgery, more older person wanting to get into something, wheelchair bound, or elderly.

Now. Once we have the gun and gun fit encompasses a lot of things, we determine the task(s) of this shotgun role. If clay games, we go that route on lessons and all.
If more serious defensive uses - we go that route. I suggest folks get training , lessons.
Now I have been around enough to know, that if a person shows up to take a class, with a bone stock shotgun, and simply says " I need gun fit and assistance for my tasks which are..."
Instructors have a student, willing to learn, and will listen. They show up with 4 rules of safety, trigger time, gun that fits as is, and things like Administrative is known.

Instructors can take this student, one that is receptive, and the instructor(s) and student can get what that student needs best for that student.

I have never had , or heard, of an instructor talking down to a student with a bone stock shotgun, that fits them, with the basics, and even with a 26" or 28 " barrel. Never! Instructors have offered the use of a shorter barrel(s) - they KNOW they have a student - there wanting to learn.

Student is honest " I shoot skeet, and hunt, so what do I need to set up another gun like this, for defensive use?" Instructors have let these students shoot a variety, sit them down and share. They find a gun fit (LOP for instance) and these folks have all the dimensions written down, part numbers, where to get and everything. When they find another gun, get the money, whatever - they are good to go.
Never has a instructor told a student a bone stock gun, one used for Skeet could not be used for defensive use either.

Software not Hardware .

This is my role, I have my druthers, and I have my lessons and training as well.

I gotta lead by example. I do my role, students see me use a bone stock shotgun, Used Police trade in revolver to shoot double action only , single shot .22 rifles with the kids, and even Red Ryder BB guns in teaching Shotguns...

I sit in a wheelchair, to be on the same level with those in wheelchairs, I use cane, I use a walker, and even get into and out of vehicles driven by these folks. Scary? How damn long a lift on a handicapped van gets one up and inside. It is one thing to "say" do this - get in a wheelchair, use the handicapped lift and do it, it changes things.

My "role" also means I have folks on a budget. I chose to work with some ladies, beaten , battered, some with kids. We gotta do what we can with the money we have to work with. Yes , a lot started with a single shot shotgun I or someone like me gave them. I cannot put into type, some of the folks I have chosen to assist with. It is the right thing to do. Medical costs, even just get gas money to see the Pro Bono Attorney about this mess. The kids gets sick, the car messes up. Pawn shop single shot shotgun is a defensive tool.

Work with, and hear the abuser sold her shotgun, her handguns and she is in survival mode. It hurts to accept a single shot shotgun and shells. They do it, survival instinct , especially with kid(s) and if they know how to shoot, or they don't - by golly they practice anyway. The dry fire, practice in a bedroom, garage, and not ashamed to say I have entertained a child so they could.

Elderly folks and various health problems - cannot do a 9.5# Shotgun. We deal with it. Adapt, Overcome, Improvise.

Currently working with a young lady recovering from detached retina, knee and shoulder surgery , handguns she knows, still wants to continue learning. Experience with .22 rifle...
She wants to learn shotguns. Never really exposed to these for some reason.
So for darn sure one has to keep it simple, gun fit, correct basic fundamentals and keep in mind her recovery.
Permanent damage will result if this is not handled correctly.

Mas Ayoob and I visited about some of this. Mas, like others understands "my role".
Like I told Mas, I show up at his class, or Awerbuck - I do not know a thing, start with 4 rules of Safety and teach me from the ground up. I may have a lot of trigger time, fired hundred of thousands of shotgun shells - competed and won....

In Mas or Awerbuck or anyone else's class - I am the student. My role is to listen , learn, and ask good questions and keep a notebook.


Steve

 

[CZ52GUY]

re: Replies

I think what's important for someone looking to receive knowledge, is to understand the context of experience of the individual looking to transmit it.

Similarly, the person seeking to transmit knowledge needs the opportunity to understand the context of intent of the individual seeking it.

When those two elements come together, you have the opportunity for understanding and valued information exchange. Think of it as getting a good sight picture AND verifying the target before pressing the trigger. What my original post is reacting to, is a tendency for a good sight picture providing the go ahead for trigger press without sufficient dialogue to verify the target.

One need not buy all the gadgets, and if you think the gadgets are going to get you there by magic, you're dreaming. If you think that somebody should suffer in silence without accessories that may be useful to their system because that's the way it's always been done in your posse, it'll never work, and my goodness some fool's thinkin' of buying junk to hang on their shotty I gotta rush in and stop 'em...than you're not doing anyone any favors either.

This has been fun, good dialogue, I hope somebody steps up to providing a good "process check" for accessory selection, integration, and verifiction. It would make one great Sticky!

I need to stop typing and start making things go bang.

Stay safe, CZ52 out

 

[Dave McCracken]

OK, you asked.....

About 1979 or 80 I had a smith cut the 30" goose barrel and mount a bead. I was working at The MD House Of Corruption and needed a defensive tool more than a sporting shotgun.

In 81 I attended an instructor's school run by the FBI. The armorer's section was a little sketchy, but I learned that an extension clamped correctly would tighten up slug groups as well as up the capacity.Shortly thereafter I acquired a Lyman peep and had my smith install that along with a Lyman front sight on a ramp. My hunting buds laughed at all this until I filled a couple tags. They then started building their own.

Meanwhile, the LE 3 gun league was getting off the ground. Various agencies including DOC fielded teams, and I ended up on ours by beating thr pants off everyone else on shotgun. My scores on the other two weapons were adequate, but I was the only officer on the team who LIKED shooting the riot barreled 870s. Ended up HOA a couple years, runnerup one.

To reduce kick and jump I had the cone done, added the Side Saddle, and for once had an equipment advantage. Nothing I had done detracted from its utility or degraded reliability.

When instructing, it was easy to get a lunchtime session among instructors going with someone timing COFs to see what worked and what didn't. Sometimes a little beer money changed hands also.

Some place along in there I let my smith buddy talk me into a Flextab kit. Not needed for me, I've not yet failed to push a shell in far enough to catch. I do thing they're a good idea in general and mandatory for agency weapons.

I also tried out one of the cheap light kits that used a Mini Mag and a pressure switch. Made it through maybe 10 rounds before system failure.

Also tried out a trigger shoe. Good in principal, but not in the real world for a "Serious" shotgun. Same with a trigger stop.

Original forend is now on another shotgun. I see little need for a heat shield, but the wraparound forend we all know beats the old coontail one when one has to shoot off say 60 rounds of 00 and 10 slugs in three minutes or less. Your fingertips will thank you for it.

That's about it....

 

[Gordon]

Lose #5 and #6. The light pipe will take a hike -eventually, and the heat shield is useless weight. You'd be better off with a sturdier 590 barrel ect. Otherwise I think it sound OK for a Mossy.

 

[jonsidneyb]

It seems many put things on a gun just because they can.

I have always thought this way before adding anything.

A)what do I gain and will I use it.
B)what do I lose by adding.

I see no reason to add anything unless the benefit outweights the loss in other areas of utility.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Checking back briefly

Lose #5 and #6. The light pipe will take a hike -eventually, and the heat shield is useless weight. You'd be better off with a sturdier 590 barrel ect. Otherwise I think it sound OK for a Mossy.

I'd like to thank this poster for making my point. Such posts in quantity inspired the original observation.

Keep Safe,
CZ52'

 

[Gordon]

No , just sharing that THAT fiber optic light pipe has flown off mine and every other SG I have seen after it got hot after long strings.The factory bead is a better(sturdier) back up to an optic. AND I've never seen any instance when a heat shield did anything for anybody whose fingers were where they belong, Ive seen a few of them shoot loose though, before they were removed. Geez if your system is so perfect just post a picture so we can learn .

 

[CZ52GUY]

To keep to the High Road, I'd suggest that Gordon and I will be going our separate ways.

For those that have an interest in the Tru-Glo sight (a stock feature on many Winchester 1300's), I've had good experience with them on both a Winchester 1300 (which someone else now enjoys), and my Mossberg 500. I've also observed multiple shooters running the Winchester 1300's in our little group, their experience to date has been positive. As an after purchase upgrade, care in installation is recommended.

The Mossberg 500 Factory Heat Shield weighs less than a 3" Magnum Shell and mine remains rock solid in it's attachment to the barrel after a combined dry-fire/live fire total of 1000's of rounds. During warm weather, I've observed numerous shooters when doing inverted rapid reloads under simulated duress utter a quite audible expression of pain when the hot barrel makes contact with their bare arm. The weight is nominal, the benefit to me has been tangible. YMMV.

This thread has never been about one individual claiming the perfect configuration, but describing the process of HOW one arrives at such for THEIR needs, the trade-offs one should consider when selecting accessories and integrating them into their system, and most importantly, how experienced shooters should seek context before attempting to impose their opinons on others they assume to be subordinate in experience.

My Shotty is pictured on the bottom sans EOTech and Mount which were added later.

 

[CZ52GUY]

It seems many put things on a gun just because they can.

I have always thought this way before adding anything.

A)what do I gain and will I use it.
B)what do I lose by adding.

I see no reason to add anything unless the benefit outweights the loss in other areas of utility.

Well said!

Once acquired, I would venture to add that during a rigorous verification process:
1) Did it meet expectations?
2) Did I lose anything I didn't consider?
3) Did I have to alter my technique to integrate it?
4) If so, is that alteration a net positive?
5) If it works but doesn't play well with something else...what stays and what goes?
6) If this accessory provides a unique capability, what is the fallback plan if it fails?

CZ52'

 

[MaterDei]

CZ52Guy,

Good post. I've got a Mossy 500 as well for HD and will give what works for you serious consideration.

I have a question about the side saddle. I keep my mossy in a Loc Box which I believe would preclude me using a frame mounted side saddle, are there side saddles that you can recommend that I could mount on the stock? I tried one of the cheap elastic cloth ones and they work fine until you actually start shooting and then they don't stay put.

Also, which EOTech are you using?

Thanks

 

[CZ52GUY]

re: MaterDei

I'd ask your intentions for accessorizing? Is it purely for HD?

Do you have an interest in competing also? Will this firearm be used for hunting?

The beauty of a shotty is it's versatility, but there are trade-offs to be considered when you hang something on your no-entry gun.

I've found that Butt Cuff's perform differently on varous stock sets. I cut a hole in one and looped it over the rear sling stud. I worked "okay". I've ordered a 4" shell butt cuff for the Hogue LOP as a cheap $7 experiment to see how it behaves on the Hogue...it's material perhaps being a little "stickier". I also want to see how it behaves in action...It could become a cheap forearm band also.

One alternative to consider for your retrieval approach, is the competition Side-Saddles offered by 3gungear.com. Unlike the permanently attached approach of my TacStar (where care in installation is essential...you overtighten the forward screw and YOU WILL BIND YOUR ACTION), little if any stress is placed on the receiver, and the shell carrier is attached via a "peel and stick" method.

http://www.3gungear.com/Pages/Shotgun.html

Pricing is roughly comparable to the TacStar, about $25-35 depending on which version. If I pick up another pump (which I expect I will at some point), I'd like to try this out on a secondary weapon to see how it behaves over time. These appear to be popular for competition...I'd like to have some extended range time with one before I'd put it into a primary HD system.

The EOTech is the AA non-Night Vision compatible model acquired from EagleFirearms.net in Colorado. I've been pleased in my dealings with this company. I load it with Lithium Batteries to maximize useful life, and I have the backup-sight arrangement I mentioned.

The Tru-Glo post (as with most fiber-optic sights) could be susceptible to issues if it makes contact with something very hard. My HD layout allows for rapid positioning of loved ones behind me and a fatal funnel I can engage from cover if needs be. I don't have a brick hearth or anything like that I'd use as cover. It's not as tight in here as some places where bumping your front end against something hard could damage the sight. Your circumstances may differ.

Briefly back to the EOTech, I find I can "cheat the weld" just a little on heavy loads (e.g. 3" magnums). Having used EOTech's (or Bushnell's with identical reticle) for 1000's of Carbine rounds, it's a familiar sight. The EOTech allows you to "trust the dot", even if your weld isn't perfect, you put the dot on target, that's where the projectile(s) are going. For HD, it's a trade-off...do you want to have to turn something on? Will the long life batteries decide to die when you need them most? What's the back-up Plan?

Again, my layout provides an opportunity to cover a fatal funnel from cover. The EOTech can be used as an imperfect Ghost Ring and the Fiber Optic sight is still visible. Center-of-Home Invader hits are still possible at these distances. The EOTech does power up pretty quickly and can be done so non-dom' hand while covering a threat zone.

All this is undeniably presents some risks/trade-offs. I've practiced hard to deal with them. I continue to.

YOUR circumstances may be different. YOUR perspective may be different in terms of what you can live with for trade-offs.

If at all possible, try BEFORE you BUY.

Good luck!!

CZ52'

 

[go_bang]

I had a tricked out Mossberg 500 for HD some time back. I had to sell it, but I intend to build another in the near future. Mine had the 18" barrel, Maglite clamped to the front with the red filter installed, heat shield, side saddle, and a speed-feed stock. When I do it over again I'll pass on the side saddle ammo carrier and get a better light. I never liked how the side saddle through off the balance of the gun. In it's place I might get a shoulder strap that can hold a few rounds, but between 6 rounds in the mag and four in the speed-feed that is probably enough.

The other reason I plan to ditch the side saddle is because this Mossy will probably serve skeet and eventual Turkey gun duty as well. Just change the barrels.

 

[Hawk]

During warm weather, I've observed numerous shooters when doing inverted rapid reloads under simulated duress utter a quite audible expression of pain when the hot barrel makes contact with their bare arm. The weight is nominal, the benefit to me has been tangible. YMMV.

I suppose this thread is going to make me feel compelled to reevaluate my view of heat shields.

Simply because I was unable to get a shotgun barrel blistering hot led me to believe they were cosmetic only.

Occasionally I forget that because I can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. The idea that they would be functional hadn't actually occured to me. Oh well, live and learn.