Accidental 115 Gr in .380

[Gearhead Jim]

Recently I started reloading .380 for my Glock 42, and bought a thousand 100 gr FN plated bullets from one of the popular makers, have loaded about 500 and fired about 250, still 500 unloaded in the bullet box. Load is 3.4 gr 231, OAL .950; which exactly duplicates the recoil of my 90 gr/930 fps Gold Dot carry load but of course lower velocity (about 830 fps) with the heavier bullet. Accuracy isn't great, but similar to factory FMJ and that's good enough for practice ammo.

Today I was thinking of ordering some more of those bullets, and decided to measure and weigh a few. The first one was .355 and 101 gr, the second was .355 and 115 gr! ***? I weighed it several times before noticing that it was slightly longer that the 101, but nose shape seemed identical. It appears that one of their 115 gr bullets got mixed into this box at the factory.

The difference in length is so slight that I would never notice it in a pile of bullets, and the loaded case bulge at the bullet base is so slight and so close to the 100 gr location that it would take a really detailed inspection to see it, but that extra 15% weight and reduced powder space might cause a real pressure problem. Or not.

.380 load data with 231 seems to vary a lot, my old Winchester book says max is 3.2 gr with a 95 FMJ but Speer 13 shows 4.0 for the same weight TMJ (plated?) and Hornady 6th ed shows 3.5 with 100 FMJ-RN ENC (plated?).

I called and left a message at the manufacturer, but they haven't called back yet and probably won't until next week. In the mean time, I'm looking for speculation on what would happen if I got another 115 gr mixed in and fired it.
For the future, one solution would be to simply use a different bullet maker, but of course they could make the same mistake and I'd never notice it. Until firing.
When/if the current maker replies, I'll give their name and post their comments.

Suggestions?

 

[rcmodel]

Well, you are already 0.3 over the Max load shown by Hodgdon for a 100 Hornady seated .980".

So, a 115 probably wouldn't be good with more powder & seated shorter.

rc

 

[moxie]

Odds are you might have already fired a few and didn't notice!

But, you're already over max as rc says, so prudence dictates you go through your loaded rounds and pull down any with the 115 gr. bullets.

And cull any remaining 115 gr. bullets out of your remaining stock of unloaded bullets. Report all these numbers to the bullet maker.

 

[gamestalker]

Wow, that's spooky.

I wouldn't even consider using any that are 115 gr. with that current load, and I would make certain none are mixed in with the remaining loaded 250, or the remaining unloaded stock.

GS

 

[Gearhead Jim]

As noted in the first post, my load is .1 below what Hornady shows for 100 gr and .6 below what Speer shows for a 95 gr, so I'm not alarmed about the current load. My bullets are FP so the OAL is, and should be, shorter.
Bumping the bullet up to 115 could be a very different story.

As mentioned, there is no practical way to cull out the 115 gr bullets (if there are any more) either from the box or from the loaded rounds. It would require careful individual inspection of every single bullet or loaded round. The length difference is so small and therefore the appearance is so similar, I'd be better off taking a part-time greeter job at Walmart and using the money to buy cheap factory ammo.

As a side note, if I loaded one of the 115 gr bullets and blew out the case or blew up the gun, everyone (including even me) would probably assume I'd somehow thrown a double charge or something similar. Makes me a little slower to criticize other guys who damage a gun with their reloads.

EDIT:
I'm sure I haven't fired any load with the accidental 115 gr bullet, the recoil would doubtless be pretty strong. If nothing came apart...

 

[Jesse Heywood]

15 grain difference you should be able to tell by throwing the loaded rounds on a scale.

It pays to take a box of bullets for a sample, especially in the post-scare market. Dump on a tray, stand several on end and look for differences. Then weigh a few. Likely won't catch if just one is bad, but if a box is mixed the odds of catching the error is good. And if the boxes are all from the same lot you only need to check one.

As for blowing up your gun, you won't be able to recover much since you posted it here first.

 

[rcmodel]

15 grains difference in loaded rounds is easily detected on your loading scales.

Get too it!!

BTW: If you were not concerned.
Why did you post the question??

rc

 

[moxie]

"It would require careful individual inspection of every single bullet or loaded round."

Well Gearhead, if you aren't willing to devote that level of attention then you shouldn't have reloading as a hobby. Lack of attention to detail is what got you into this pickle in the first place.

You are "not alarmed" about this and "sure" about that. Uh-huh.

 

[Safetychain]

I have bought a mixed batch of 9mm bullets, and advertised that way, for real cheap. It was supposed to be 2 different weights, if I remember right, 115 and 124 gn. (turned out to be 3 different ones). It is easy to tell the difference when done correctly. Pour them all in a cookie sheet that has the 1/4-1/2 inch raised sides, stand all up on the bases and look across them. It is easy to tell them apart. Use forceps and pick out the taller ones. Same way as separating range brass. Easy to separate out all the 9mm class from all others. Pour them on the cookie sheet, stand on the bases and 380s stand out, or should I say kneel down. Even the maks are easy to see. Its kind of like when using a single stage press and standing up all cases in the loading block after metering the powder. One quick glance and any load out of the ordinary will stand out easily. The eye can see minute differences when the items are side by side or in a matrix. A couple of millimeters is easy.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

In case anyone is wondering, I'm not going to just load up the remaining bullets and start shooting. The ideal situation would be for the maker to take back the bullets I haven't loaded and replace them with a different lot. No guarantee there, but if this problem was happening frequently, we would have heard about it by now.

Nor will I shoot the ~250 loaded rounds I have now, without either weighing or visual inspection (case bulge at base of bullet) each of them. A PITA, but the only other way would be if the maker would "buy" my loaded ammo and send me an equal supply of bullets, brass, primers and powder; or some kind of compensation for them. That seems highly unlikely.

When they (hopefully) call me back next week, I'll post the results.

 

[Rule3]

The only way to know FOR SURE is to weigh every remaining bullet. The sad news is you would also need to pull the loaded rounds, Try to weigh load cases is an effort in futility. Yes 15 grains sounds like a lot and you would think it shows up easy, but trying to find it on loaded ammo is not as easy. You can try but no quarantine.

If you do not want to go through the time and effort then I wish you the best.

 

[rcmodel]

Weighing loaded ammo?
Normally I would agree with you when looking for powder charge mistakes in handgun ammo.

5.0 grains is futile with cast bullets in centerfire calibers.

15.0 grains in a 9mm with plated or jacketed bullets is a slam dunk 100% sure thing finding them by weighing them.

rc

 

[rondog]

Yep. A small cheapo digital scale is a worthy tool to have on your reloading bench!

 

[gamestalker]

Some years back I made a critical error, one that inspired me to add yet another fail safe step to my reloading process.

I was loading 9mm using 147 gr. XTP's and Longshot, carelessness resulted in me using data intended for 124 gr. XTP's with the 147's. Fortunately for me, Longshot was forgiving enough, that the only problem I had was a small percentage of the loads were experiencing minor splits, which is what inspired me to stop shooting right then and there, pull the bullets, and identify the cause.

That was a real eye opener for me. Since those days I now double and even triple check data which is hand written on a post it displayed in front of me, and logged in the book, powder container, and bullet box sit on the bench while loading that batch. Then when I finish the batch, I verify everything as I put it all away. Haven't had another such mishap since, and it's been a good couple decades.

Reloading is very unforgiving of serious errors. That said, it's our responsibility to do everything conceivably possible to reduce the risk of experiencing a catastrophic event. If I thought for one second that I may have a problem as described by the OP, I would weigh every single loaded round, and verify every single bullet weight.

GS

 

[Rule3]

Weighing loaded ammo?
Normally I would agree with you when looking for powder charge mistakes in handgun ammo.

5.0 grains is futile with cast bullets in centerfire calibers.

15.0 grains in a 9mm with plated or jacketed bullets is a slam dunk 100% sure thing finding them by weighing them.

rc

True, that should show up on your scale. Can't get anything past you!

 

[Gearhead Jim]

Update-

Yesterday I had a phone conversation with a rep at the bullet company (Extreme). Some info:

My "accidental" 115 gr plated FMJ-RNFP is a puzzle, because they do not (intentionally) make that bullet. They make several varieties of 115 gr bullets, but no plated RN-FP 115.

He said getting an incorrect bullet "doesn't happen very often", which implies that it does happen sometimes. Of course, if the incorrect bullet is lighter weight then there's little danger. If it's some design that is obviously different, like a HP instead of a FP, then it's easy to see and discard. My particular combination of heavier weight and similar appearance is the dangerous combo, he wouldn't guess at the pressures but agreed they would be seriously high.

They are sending me a new box of 500, and a free shipping label to return the ~400 rds left in the current box. And the "bad" bullet.

I will weigh all of my existing reloads using their 100 gr bullets. With my beam scale set at 160 gr, a normal weight loaded round leaves the pointer "down", a 115 gr loaded round swings it up.

My initial plan was to switch brands to avoid this problem in the future, but any other brand could have the same problem, perhaps more likely if they make both a 100 and a 115 with the same shape.

My reloads with the Extreme 100 gr seem equal in accuracy to factory ammo, which isn't saying much. I have a pair of Glock 42's, both shoot similar size groups and those groups are about twice the size of my two G19's groups. I fire from a seated position with a padded rest, which normally allows me to shoot pretty accurately.

Cheers!

 

[Rule3]

Glad to hear that it worked out for you and think it is nice they are sending you bullets especially since they do not make a 115 FN.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

Yes, I was wondering if they would deny the bad bullet was theirs, and claim it must have been something from my bench. I did explain that except for the slight difference in length, and the weight, the bad bullet looked exactly like the rest of the box of 100 grainers.

It does make me wonder how many other blown cases or blown guns, could be caused by a similar situation with any brand of bullet. We always presume it was an over-charge (usually a double) or some loading error, and 99% of the time that's it. But now I'll be a lot slower to point the finger.

 

[wlkjr]

Just for the record, I only use 3.1 grains of 231 for my 100 grain Xtremes. And the gun functions fine.

 

[jell-dog]

Just for the record, I only use 3.1 grains of 231 for my 100 grain Xtremes. And the gun functions fine.

^^^+1^^^

Nice load in my Bersa Firestorm 380.

Gearhead Jim,

Here is NOSLER published data for 115gr JHP in a 380auto (I know you're using 100gr FN):

http://www.nosler.com/nosler-load-data/380-auto-acp/

They suggest 2.6gr HP-38 (WIN 231) MAX @ 0.975" COL with 1.6gr HP-38 (WIN 231) as the "most accurate" in their testing.

This theoretically puts you at as much as 0.8gr to 1.8gr OVER LOADED.

A dangerous amount in a small case like 380auto.

Please take RC's advice!

15 grains difference in loaded rounds is easily detected on your loading scales.
Get too it!!
BTW: If you were not concerned.
Why did you post the question??
rc

__________________

 

[Gearhead Jim]

WLKJR-
Yes, I started at 3.0 and worked up to 3.8 which was pretty emphatic for a .380; almost 900 fps.

I've settled on 3.4 because using my gun, my ammo, my reloading setup, and my chronograph; that gives a recoil which exactly matches the recoil of my carry load (Speer 90 gr Gold Dot) according to the online recoil calculator and also according to my hand.

I've got some Freedom Munitions 100 gr plated (look like my Extreme bullets) reloads from last summer, they chronograph at 955 fps which is more than 100 fps faster than my 3.4/231 load.
Just another reason to reload my own, why pay more money for practice ammo which is beating up the gun?
I tell people that if you want to see all the things that can be done wrong in reloading, buy commercial reloads. Back in my PD days, I tested a bunch of commercial reloads for the department in an effort to get cheaper practice ammo. The only reloads which I was willing to keep shooting in my guns, cost more than WWB at Walmart.

jell-
With the 100 gr, I'm not worried about 3.4/231; my Speer manual allows up to 4.0 with the same weight bullet (different OAL due to different nose shape). But getting a 115 in there would be nasty.

 

[jell-dog]

I have no doubt you have responsibly worked up your data for the 100gr FN bullets, I was just trying to point out that IF one of those 115FN's snuck into your completed rounds, IMHO, you would be severely overloaded.

JD

 

[Gearhead Jim]

Yes, that's the problem.
I can't come up with a practice load with recoil similar to my carry ammo, that wouldn't be a serious overload if a 115 gr bullet gets mixed in by the bullet maker.

A 124 gr bullet in a 9mm load that's near max for 115 gr, would be a similar problem but probably not as extreme. OTOH, 9mm operates at higher pressures to start.

And then there is the possibility of oversize bullets (.357 instead of .355), mislabeled power from the manufacturer, etc.

I hear of similar problems being discovered in factory ammo, (usually before firing, but not always), so buying factory ammo is not a guarantee of safety.

Practicing to keep yourself safe, can be dangerous!

 

[tcoz]

WLKJR-
I've got some Freedom Munitions 100 gr plated (look like my Extreme bullets) reloads from last summer, they chronograph at 955 fps which is more than 100 fps faster than my 3.4/231 load.

FWIW, Freedom Munitions and X-Treme bullets are sister companies and Freedom uses X-Treme bullets in their reman ammunition.

I once bought a couple boxes of seconds from a well known bullet manufacturer. There was all kinds of crap in those two boxes as I had different weight bullets, different bullet profiles and cannelured mixed with non-cannelured. Never again will I buy seconds and I now give at least a cursory inspection to all the bullets I buy just to see if anything glaring stands out.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

Thanks for the Extreme/Freedom info.