the lone gunman
Member
I love the shows about the old west ,, Bonanza,, Gunsmoke ,, I wonder in this age of MOA or get rid of it. How did the old levers during that time shoot ? And what Levers were considered the most accurate.
Accuracy in the Old West
- Thread starter the lone gunman
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qajaq59
Member
If you ever want to see the guns that were used on Bonanza they are in a museum in Cody Wyoming. Along with darn near every other gun ever made. It took me 2 days to go thru that place.
Shawnee
member
The venerable Jack O'Conner was more than a passable amateur historian of the "Old West" and I recall him writing somewhere something to the effect that "... in spite of the Romance about the "thutty-thutty and the Peacemaker, when things got sticky most of the "Old West" folk reached for the scattergun." Back in the mid-80s Hal Swiggett made a similar comment to me at one of the S.H.O.T. shows.
Carrying a gun with a 2-piece stock in a saddle scabbard is a very quick way to loosen it up but it's highly probable that folks back then held most of their lever-gun firing until ranges were moderate enough that 5MOA was good enough to git 'er done. When they really, really wanted distance they had the Sharps.
Local opinion may vary.
Carrying a gun with a 2-piece stock in a saddle scabbard is a very quick way to loosen it up but it's highly probable that folks back then held most of their lever-gun firing until ranges were moderate enough that 5MOA was good enough to git 'er done. When they really, really wanted distance they had the Sharps.
Local opinion may vary.
Slugless
Member
Shawnee,
I've not carried a rifle in a scabbard but have a Mountie which I had thought of scabbarding for ATV service.
Question: when you wrote about a 2 piece stock, it that the same as what I would call a 2 piece receiver a la a Marlin lever rifle?
If it is, I'm glad to hear it before I mess something up.
I've not carried a rifle in a scabbard but have a Mountie which I had thought of scabbarding for ATV service.
Question: when you wrote about a 2 piece stock, it that the same as what I would call a 2 piece receiver a la a Marlin lever rifle?
If it is, I'm glad to hear it before I mess something up.
Shawnee
member
Hi Slu...
Right. The old leather scabbards which were "worked on" by every step taken by the horse wore/wear pretty hard on the two-piecers. (They weren't too comfortable for the horses either )
I don't know about carrying in a rigid scabbard on an ATV. I would think the Marlin 336 would be (arguably) tougher than the Win. 94 but, again, I haven't carried either on an ATV.
Hopefully someone with ATV/lever-gun experience will show up and enlighten us both.
Right. The old leather scabbards which were "worked on" by every step taken by the horse wore/wear pretty hard on the two-piecers. (They weren't too comfortable for the horses either
) I don't know about carrying in a rigid scabbard on an ATV. I would think the Marlin 336 would be (arguably) tougher than the Win. 94 but, again, I haven't carried either on an ATV.
Hopefully someone with ATV/lever-gun experience will show up and enlighten us both.
In a letter from a man that shot against Bob Dalton before the Coffeville raid, he said they shot for a horse. Distance was 200 yards, they both used Bob's 1886 Winchester caliber 38-56, shooting was offhand, 5 shots each. The writer does not say exactly what size the "senter" was, but he said he was an uncommonly good shot for the day, tho Bob beat him. Sometimes by the width of a bullet.
I recall another reference to Bob's shooting that the writer stated that all the shots at 200 yards could be covered with a hand.
From personal experience with 1886's, and others experiences, with loads they like, 100 yd 2" groups are not impossible by any means, and some will do better.
1894's don't really fit into most the classification of an "old west" gun. The frontier was mostly civilized by the time the 94 came out.
I've seen a lot of old Winchesters, and haven't noticed more than a couple that were "loosened up" from carry in scabbards. Those that were loose showed more abuse than hard use. IF the stock loosens any, it can be easily tightened. The tangs pinch the stock, so even if the stock dried out or loosened, it can be tighened pretty easily.
I don't know that a Marlin would be stronger in a scabbard than an 1894 Winchester. They are both literally identical in stock attachment and tang, tho the 1866, 1873, and 1886 Winchesters have a longer lower tang with an extra wood screw, that would seem to make those models stronger than later guns.
I agree that a shotgun can be intimidating up close, but after the effective range is exceeded (40-50 yards generally), even a pistol is more effective. I still consider about any rifle or carbine and any decent caliber pistol to be more generally practical. Bows and arrows have more range than shotguns. The Indians were considered dangerous with them at an easy 100 yards.
I recall another reference to Bob's shooting that the writer stated that all the shots at 200 yards could be covered with a hand.
From personal experience with 1886's, and others experiences, with loads they like, 100 yd 2" groups are not impossible by any means, and some will do better.
1894's don't really fit into most the classification of an "old west" gun. The frontier was mostly civilized by the time the 94 came out.
I've seen a lot of old Winchesters, and haven't noticed more than a couple that were "loosened up" from carry in scabbards. Those that were loose showed more abuse than hard use. IF the stock loosens any, it can be easily tightened. The tangs pinch the stock, so even if the stock dried out or loosened, it can be tighened pretty easily.
I don't know that a Marlin would be stronger in a scabbard than an 1894 Winchester. They are both literally identical in stock attachment and tang, tho the 1866, 1873, and 1886 Winchesters have a longer lower tang with an extra wood screw, that would seem to make those models stronger than later guns.
I agree that a shotgun can be intimidating up close, but after the effective range is exceeded (40-50 yards generally), even a pistol is more effective. I still consider about any rifle or carbine and any decent caliber pistol to be more generally practical. Bows and arrows have more range than shotguns. The Indians were considered dangerous with them at an easy 100 yards.
Swawnee,
I have a Honda Rancher that I use on an 800 acre lease that my club has.
It is all timbered swamp with some dry humps and some some areas that are 2feet deep. Every thing is very thick with 75 yards being a long shot. From the area we park to my primary stand is about 1.5 miles. When I got the machine one of the first things I added was a 2 gun front gun rack. I don't remember the brand but I liked it because it would vibrate with the movement of the machine and terrain. The only problem was my 257 Wby was wider than the ATV, and on the tight trails you have to be very careful.
I inherited a 336 Marlin in 35 Remington that I only shot once at the range. As it's a lot shorter than the Wby and the shots on this lease were all close, I decided to start carrying it on the 4 wheeler. It was better but not perfect. I ordered a Kolpin gun boot to see how it would work. As soon as it arrived I sent it right back. The mounts to the ATV were totally rigid and the padding inside the case was almost nonexistant. It also kind of jammed your right leg up.
Since there were no other options I started carrying the 336 with a sling across my back. It's kind of a pain but it keeps thee gun protected.
I've killed 3 deer with the 336 back in there. Closest shot was at the ladder to the box stand and the farthest was maybe 20 yards.
If your going to be hunting in open country a front mount is fine. In the thick stuff plan on using a sling. You can also buy a waterproof rifle sleeve to put the gun in before you put it in the rack. I wouldn't carry one of my higher end pcs., but the shooters, no problem.
Hope this is what your looking for.
Mark
I have a Honda Rancher that I use on an 800 acre lease that my club has.
It is all timbered swamp with some dry humps and some some areas that are 2feet deep. Every thing is very thick with 75 yards being a long shot. From the area we park to my primary stand is about 1.5 miles. When I got the machine one of the first things I added was a 2 gun front gun rack. I don't remember the brand but I liked it because it would vibrate with the movement of the machine and terrain. The only problem was my 257 Wby was wider than the ATV, and on the tight trails you have to be very careful.
I inherited a 336 Marlin in 35 Remington that I only shot once at the range. As it's a lot shorter than the Wby and the shots on this lease were all close, I decided to start carrying it on the 4 wheeler. It was better but not perfect. I ordered a Kolpin gun boot to see how it would work. As soon as it arrived I sent it right back. The mounts to the ATV were totally rigid and the padding inside the case was almost nonexistant. It also kind of jammed your right leg up.
Since there were no other options I started carrying the 336 with a sling across my back. It's kind of a pain but it keeps thee gun protected.
I've killed 3 deer with the 336 back in there. Closest shot was at the ladder to the box stand and the farthest was maybe 20 yards.
If your going to be hunting in open country a front mount is fine. In the thick stuff plan on using a sling. You can also buy a waterproof rifle sleeve to put the gun in before you put it in the rack. I wouldn't carry one of my higher end pcs., but the shooters, no problem.
Hope this is what your looking for.
Mark
I'd rather be shot at by an archer any day than a shotgun at 100 yards. A shotgun with a full choke will have a very high probability of hitting a human torso at that range even with a novice shooter. A bow and arrow? Well, an experienced archer with a modern bow and a 100 yard pin could probably do it fairly reliably, assuming he knew the range, but with an Indian bow, it would just be luck. Those things only had a velocity of around 140 fps. At 100 yards that means you have to aim 74 feet high in order to hit your target.
El Tejon
Member
We have a family Winchester 1866 (IIRC 4th gen as it took centerfire). We've never put it on paper but the last time we shot it (20 years ago) I can tell you that it can hit a paint can at 50 yards.
It is my understanding from reading history that the fights were a lot closer than what the Horse Operas of the 1950s lead one to believe.
For a underlever I believe the 1886 had a solid rep, but I believe that was based upon the rounds it through than the accuracy. The hyperattention that accuracy today was not in vogue then.
It is my understanding from reading history that the fights were a lot closer than what the Horse Operas of the 1950s lead one to believe.
For a underlever I believe the 1886 had a solid rep, but I believe that was based upon the rounds it through than the accuracy. The hyperattention that accuracy today was not in vogue then.
dstorm1911
Member
Elmerfudd, if your ever in Tucson ya might wanna drop by the PSE Archery factory, there is a public range out back of the pro-shop with 100 yard Olymipic range on one side and a 75 yard Hunter range on the other, in 1996 when I was on the PSE Gorrila team several of us were always out on the Olympic ranges just playing around (no modern compounds bows etc.. allowed on the Oly range) with the long bows and Flat bows PSE sells the 100 yard target gets tagged quite frequently its not a hard shot even without modern sights and super hot 300 fps trajectories the Ceder arrows never had any problem penetrating the 8" thick hard woven mat Olympic backstops..... for 100 yards with a 45lb Osage Flat bow and a 600 grn ceder arrow your holding 12" over the top of the target to get the Bull which is in the Center of a 36" target BTW....... no 74feet over needed to hit a man center of chest ya will hold on his head and the heavy arrow also doesn't need to be moving as fast as the much much lighter modern carbon shafts to penetrate its a lil thing called inertia add a heavy indian iron or flint tip with razor sharp edges....... slow bleedout is the result just like killing a bear or Elk with a bow that a scatter gun will only get em mad........ hunters been doin it with traditional archery equipment for centuries Fred Bear might be a name your familiar with... he never used anything but old Flat bows in his early days of bowhunting 40-45lb peak draw weight with heavy ceder shafts and razor sharp broadheads he took 30 boon and crocket record book animals with that equipment......
As far as 100 yards with a scatter gun, I would dearly love to see that with a BLACK POWDER scatter gun with the traditional cyl. bore! I'm not being sarcastic I mean I'd really really like to see it done, cause my grand daddy's old double barrel he inherited from his dad at best with the same loads as they used in the day is a 40 yard gun tops and not what I'd consider lethal at all unless ya swallowed onea the pellets and just to reach 100 yards it would be pointed almost straight up and only raining shot down (just like when anyones duck hunting and getin rained on from the shooters on the other side of the pond) the pattern at 100 yards is pretty much non-existant as most of the pellets end up skipping off the ground...... Do ya have some source for these Black powder 100 yard loadings? I'd really like to give em a try cause the loading listed from the old manuals won't even come close and remember they gotta be safe for the old guns not some BP load to only be used in a modern steel replica
As far as 100 yards with a scatter gun, I would dearly love to see that with a BLACK POWDER scatter gun with the traditional cyl. bore! I'm not being sarcastic I mean I'd really really like to see it done, cause my grand daddy's old double barrel he inherited from his dad at best with the same loads as they used in the day is a 40 yard gun tops and not what I'd consider lethal at all unless ya swallowed onea the pellets and just to reach 100 yards it would be pointed almost straight up and only raining shot down (just like when anyones duck hunting and getin rained on from the shooters on the other side of the pond) the pattern at 100 yards is pretty much non-existant as most of the pellets end up skipping off the ground...... Do ya have some source for these Black powder 100 yard loadings? I'd really like to give em a try cause the loading listed from the old manuals won't even come close and remember they gotta be safe for the old guns not some BP load to only be used in a modern steel replica
DStorm1911
I tend to disagree with what the natives here had to work with is a far cry from a modern long bow and a black powder shotgun loaded with large buck shot would have plenty of velocity to be quite lethal at 100 yards.
I tend to disagree with what the natives here had to work with is a far cry from a modern long bow and a black powder shotgun loaded with large buck shot would have plenty of velocity to be quite lethal at 100 yards.
C-grunt
Member
My friend has a family heirloom Winchester 1894 from that time frame and he said it shoots pretty good. He said its more accurate than his SKS which he shoots around 4 inches at 100 yards using irons.
Rosstradamus
Member
I have a book called Our Rifles, copyright 1920, that has several accounts of famous marksmen of the 1800's. Some targets are reproduced. Two by J.H. Gardiner of Scanton, PA were first published in the May 11, 1893 issue of Shooting and Fishing. He used cap lock, muzzle loading, gain twist target rifles of his own make, with barrels weighing about 15 lbs. apiece. He shot from the shoulder with a muzzle rest.
The first target shows ten shots at 110 yards. All the holes are overlapping. The target is supposedly reproduced full-size, which would make it just under three-fourths of an inch, center to center.
The second target shows ten shots at 220 yards with nine of the ten overlapping. Counting the one flier, if it can be called that, the group measures an inch and three-eighths.
A nine-shot group with all shots overlapping, shot at 110 yards in 1859 and published in Forest and Stream on November 20, 1890, measures just under half an inch. That was shot with another gain twist muzzle loader.
The next target was shot in 1890. Eleven shots at 200 yards, nine of the eleven overlapping. Total spread: an inch and three-eighths.
The last one in the book was shot in 1876 with a cap lock muzzle loader by H. Warner at a public shooting match in front of at least fifty withnesses. It was published in Shooting and Fishing on December 11, 1890. Five shots at 110 yards, all shots overlapping to a considerable degree, essentially in one hole. Total spread: under half an inch, center to center. That's barely more than the diameter of the projectile. The group was shot from a rest but with open sights.
The first target shows ten shots at 110 yards. All the holes are overlapping. The target is supposedly reproduced full-size, which would make it just under three-fourths of an inch, center to center.
The second target shows ten shots at 220 yards with nine of the ten overlapping. Counting the one flier, if it can be called that, the group measures an inch and three-eighths.
A nine-shot group with all shots overlapping, shot at 110 yards in 1859 and published in Forest and Stream on November 20, 1890, measures just under half an inch. That was shot with another gain twist muzzle loader.
The next target was shot in 1890. Eleven shots at 200 yards, nine of the eleven overlapping. Total spread: an inch and three-eighths.
The last one in the book was shot in 1876 with a cap lock muzzle loader by H. Warner at a public shooting match in front of at least fifty withnesses. It was published in Shooting and Fishing on December 11, 1890. Five shots at 110 yards, all shots overlapping to a considerable degree, essentially in one hole. Total spread: under half an inch, center to center. That's barely more than the diameter of the projectile. The group was shot from a rest but with open sights.
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the lone gunman
Member
Very Interesting stuff, I like it.
DStrom1911, My dad and I used to do alot of bow shooting years ago. Just plain old recurves, My dad was quite good I was only so-so, It was always my observation that the old cedar shaft arrows didnt have energy loss at great range like a bullet or shotgun. Meaning I would not want to be hit with one at ANY distance. I still have my Bear Grizzly and Kodiak. Shame most young hunters now never get to handle a true work of art from the late great Fred Bear. Would love to get back at it but, My shoulder says No.
DStrom1911, My dad and I used to do alot of bow shooting years ago. Just plain old recurves, My dad was quite good I was only so-so, It was always my observation that the old cedar shaft arrows didnt have energy loss at great range like a bullet or shotgun. Meaning I would not want to be hit with one at ANY distance. I still have my Bear Grizzly and Kodiak. Shame most young hunters now never get to handle a true work of art from the late great Fred Bear. Would love to get back at it but, My shoulder says No.
I recall reading that the plains and mountain Indians had horn bows with about a 100 lb draw weight.
I've seen, and understand that they are not unusual finds, a buffalo upper front leg bone with an iron trade point buried a good 3/4 inch or better in the bone,....from the inside, meaning it had already gone through a lot of buffalo to get there before going into the bone.
I've seen, and understand that they are not unusual finds, a buffalo upper front leg bone with an iron trade point buried a good 3/4 inch or better in the bone,....from the inside, meaning it had already gone through a lot of buffalo to get there before going into the bone.
Look at the sighting equipment that they were working with. The long range sights for a Sharps were pretty complex. Logic would suggest that it wouldn't make sense to go to all that trouble if your rifle wasn't accurate enough to take advantage of it. I remember reading over in the black powder section in the "sharpshooter tales" thread about a confederate soldier who hit a running rabbit with a rifle musket at some distance over 200 yards. Even the PA rifles of the revolutionary war were accurate enough to put bullets in a man's vitals at 300 or so yards (with a good marksman).
There is every reason to believe that the rifles were entirely capable of good accuracy.
There is every reason to believe that the rifles were entirely capable of good accuracy.
The Sharps rifles were known for good shooting. In the book "Getting a Stand" by Miles Gilbert, there is at least one story of a long range gunfight between some buffalo hunters and Indians that was at around 1000 yards. I recall that at least one participant was using a 50-70 caliber rifle to good effect. They surmised that the Indians either had a white with them shooting at the hunters, or had taught them how to use the captured/stolen buffalo guns properly.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Most saddle-gun damage is not from the stock loosening up from the saddle scabbard.
Most saddle-gun damage is from when the horse decides to scratch his back and rolls over on top of it.
Many old lever-guns will be found with stock wrest repairs, including stove-pipe wire wrappings, etc. from a horse rolling over on it.
Saddle scabbards play heck with bluing & stock finish, but loosening up a stock is not a notable problem. Breaking the whole stock off is!
Old lever-gun accuracy is a lot better then many folks give them credit for.
I have one 1950's era 1894 30-30 that has shot 1 1/2" five shot 100 yard groups on many occasions with 125 grain Sierra reloads.
The pistol caliber 1892's, and rifle caliber 1973's and 1886's will generally easily hold 2 - 3 MOA with good ammo. At any rate, they were plenty accurate enough to kill as far as the looping black-powder trajectorys of the day would allow hits.
rcmodel
Most saddle-gun damage is from when the horse decides to scratch his back and rolls over on top of it.
Many old lever-guns will be found with stock wrest repairs, including stove-pipe wire wrappings, etc. from a horse rolling over on it.
Saddle scabbards play heck with bluing & stock finish, but loosening up a stock is not a notable problem. Breaking the whole stock off is!
Old lever-gun accuracy is a lot better then many folks give them credit for.
I have one 1950's era 1894 30-30 that has shot 1 1/2" five shot 100 yard groups on many occasions with 125 grain Sierra reloads.
The pistol caliber 1892's, and rifle caliber 1973's and 1886's will generally easily hold 2 - 3 MOA with good ammo. At any rate, they were plenty accurate enough to kill as far as the looping black-powder trajectorys of the day would allow hits.
rcmodel
redneckrepairs
Member
- Joined
- May 3, 2005
- Messages
- 1,117
IMHO the quality and consistency of the ammo was a bigger limit than the firearms technology . With that being said the ability of the user was the biggest limit just as today ( look to both gangbangers and chairborne rangers for examples today ) . I have a trapdoor springfield that will still shoot some sub 2" groups with the right ammo and shooter , with me it opens up to around 5" or so lol .
Sistema1927
Member
I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't feel comfortable within 100 yards of anyone shooting at me with any gun or any bow. There is always the danger of the "golden BB" (or "golden chunk of obsidian").
Oohrah
Member
Don't know about way back when, but in the mid 50's when
I was a younger man, a member of the family gave me a Marlin
1893 carbine. It was in the 32-40 caliber that would keep a
box full in 3 to 6" at 100 yards. Took my first two deer at 75
yards at age 13. Not very many long shots in Minnesota, and
8 out of 10 rifles were levers with most likey were 4 to 6 MOA.
Scopes were rare.
I was a younger man, a member of the family gave me a Marlin
1893 carbine. It was in the 32-40 caliber that would keep a
box full in 3 to 6" at 100 yards. Took my first two deer at 75
yards at age 13. Not very many long shots in Minnesota, and
8 out of 10 rifles were levers with most likey were 4 to 6 MOA.
Scopes were rare.
Float Pilot
Member
For reading, you can look at Mike Venturino's Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.
He uses period correct loads in a many cases. Plus he discusses factory ammo then available.
I shoot a few of my old lever guns. Two of the 1886 Winchesters will still shoot fairly good groups with black powder loads even though they both (a 45-70 short rifle and a 45-90 Long full rifle) have lots of bore wear and pitting from over 100 years of use. One was made in 1891 and the other in 1893. I can hit a pie plate size gong at 300 yards with both rifles using black powder loads.
I also have a 1892 Winchester rifle (not carbine) in 38 WCF (38-40) It was made during the first few months of production in 1892.
With full load black powder loads, I can put all the shots into a 3 inch circle at 100 yards using the tang peep.
After about 10 shots the powder fouling makes the group start to open up. And when they open up they really go wild.... so movies showing long range shots after a day long shoot out are pure BS.
Shots like those made at the battle of the Adobe Walls occured over a period of a few days with the shooters being able to clean their rifles and mold new slugs in between action periods.
I also shoot a couple Shiloh Sharps. (I also have one in 50-90 that is unfired and for sale) Careful hand-loading with Sharps rifles can make long range shooting a real hoot.
Here are some pics of the 50-90 Caliber (50 x 2.5 inch case) unfired Shiloh Sharps Long Range Express. Looking at the sights you can tell how they gained their reputation for long range thumping. AT BIG TARGETS, LIKE GRAZING BUFFALO.
I also put in a photo of the 1892 Winchester 38-40. Which is in better shape than most rifles that age.
If your read about the Johnson County war in the 1890s you will see that both sides fired LOTS of rounds and not a whole lot of folks got killed. One side was made up of hired supposedly prefessional gunmen who actually lost to the new immigrant farmers.
In the early 1900s Tom Horn was using the "The New" 30-30 cartridge in his 1894 Winchester Rifle for sniping at range rustlers. Not the 45-60 cartridge that was depicted in the Steve McQueen movie. Although Horn did supposedly use an 1876 (an oversized 1873) rifle in 45-60 earlier in his career.
The new 30-30 (30 WCF) was smokeless and a fairly flat shooter for the time. Even then I think his longerst shot was just over 200 yards from a laying and wait position.
He uses period correct loads in a many cases. Plus he discusses factory ammo then available.
I shoot a few of my old lever guns. Two of the 1886 Winchesters will still shoot fairly good groups with black powder loads even though they both (a 45-70 short rifle and a 45-90 Long full rifle) have lots of bore wear and pitting from over 100 years of use. One was made in 1891 and the other in 1893. I can hit a pie plate size gong at 300 yards with both rifles using black powder loads.
I also have a 1892 Winchester rifle (not carbine) in 38 WCF (38-40) It was made during the first few months of production in 1892.
With full load black powder loads, I can put all the shots into a 3 inch circle at 100 yards using the tang peep.
After about 10 shots the powder fouling makes the group start to open up. And when they open up they really go wild.... so movies showing long range shots after a day long shoot out are pure BS.
Shots like those made at the battle of the Adobe Walls occured over a period of a few days with the shooters being able to clean their rifles and mold new slugs in between action periods.
I also shoot a couple Shiloh Sharps. (I also have one in 50-90 that is unfired and for sale) Careful hand-loading with Sharps rifles can make long range shooting a real hoot.
Here are some pics of the 50-90 Caliber (50 x 2.5 inch case) unfired Shiloh Sharps Long Range Express. Looking at the sights you can tell how they gained their reputation for long range thumping. AT BIG TARGETS, LIKE GRAZING BUFFALO.
I also put in a photo of the 1892 Winchester 38-40. Which is in better shape than most rifles that age.
If your read about the Johnson County war in the 1890s you will see that both sides fired LOTS of rounds and not a whole lot of folks got killed. One side was made up of hired supposedly prefessional gunmen who actually lost to the new immigrant farmers.
In the early 1900s Tom Horn was using the "The New" 30-30 cartridge in his 1894 Winchester Rifle for sniping at range rustlers. Not the 45-60 cartridge that was depicted in the Steve McQueen movie. Although Horn did supposedly use an 1876 (an oversized 1873) rifle in 45-60 earlier in his career.
The new 30-30 (30 WCF) was smokeless and a fairly flat shooter for the time. Even then I think his longerst shot was just over 200 yards from a laying and wait position.
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redneckrepairs
Member
- Joined
- May 3, 2005
- Messages
- 1,117
Now not to disparage fine shooters , or fine firarms , but 9 out of 10 times you hear someone speak to what small " moa " thier rifle shoots they cannot explain moa beyound is should be " about 1" at 100 yards " . Trust me dont even ask them how to use a mil dot scope reticule. I am no good shooter myself and in my guns accuracy i speak to minute of felon , or minute of coyote If i can hit a solid torso hit under field conditions at 400 i am a happy camper .
For me most of the " moa " shooters i run into are the fact i need to listen to about a minute of this a**wipe before i go on to someone who may be a real shooter lol .
For me most of the " moa " shooters i run into are the fact i need to listen to about a minute of this a**wipe before i go on to someone who may be a real shooter lol .
yesit'sloaded
Member
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- Aug 15, 2007
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The distance between one line to another is a minute of angle. For instance at 200 yards if you need to shoot four inches right you line up the cross hairs and move the center two dots over from center.Right?
the lone gunman
Member
FloatPilot, Could you post a pic of that 50/90 cartrige with something familar like a 223 for scale ? I have never seen one. As I recall didnt Tom Horn get hung for killing a young boy? Thank You. Dale ( P.S. you gun pics are great, very nice )
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