Action shoots?

[ATLDave]

Looks like you've got 3 USPSA clubs kinda close (at least one of which appears to be an indoor match) in Hartsgrove, Deerfield, and Canal Fulton, OH. Then a couple more towards Erie in PA.

 

[Axis II]

If I could just say just one more thing then I will shut up. I have been around firearms for 50 years but handguns only since 2013. Late 2013 that is. I started out IDPA and really really wanted to shoot in an sanctioned match my first competition year 2014. I shot 3 classifiers and finally marksman in stock service pistol on the 3rd try so I entered a sanctioned match in July 2014. It was for me a total disaster. I didn't touch a handgun for a month afterwards.

I then stuck my toe back into the waters in fall 2014 but didn't enter any matches for the rest of the year. I actually considered giving up handguns. But alas it's in the blood. I was given a really nice Christmas bonus in 2014 so in a moment of insanity I purchased my first revolver, a S&W 686 which I was going to use in IDPA revo class. Anyway, a "friend" introduced me to static steel and the rest is as they say history. 2015 I shot revolver, I was in a word, horrible score wise, really I to this day cannot believe how bad I shot that year. 2016 stayed in local static steel competitions and did a few IDPA revolver and more USPSA revolver.

Last year 2017 I shot a lot of matches probably 26 or so mostly steel and/or steel challenge and mostly revolver. I have two additional (8 shot) revolvers and shot about 10k total rounds through them last year. About 2 weeks ago, for the first time, I had the high score out of 8 iron sight revolvers in a 6 stage steel challenge match. This was my first SC match where I didn't shoot open with a red-dot. I couldn't believe it when I got the results and saw my name at the top!

So I had a very rocky start and was quite worried that I would get a bad reputation. I have come a long long way but still have many miles to travel before anyone looks at me and askes me how I do it. But I have really thrown myself into this in the last year. If there is one piece of advice I would give anyone is when you start out really take your time. You will not win your first match and is as easy as falling off a chair to get DQed. So go slow. Very slow. Avoid the heartache that I experienced.

The secret to getting good at this is....drum roll..... dry fire practice. Unless you have that gun in your hands at least 5 days/week it will be a long hard struggle to get proficient. But for some it's all about having fun and nothing else matters.

No need to as i appreciate all the help.

While i am wanting to do this to be competitive i am also doing it to have some fun.

I figured i would setup some 3-4'' shoot n c targets on the board at various spots and play the aim small miss small game for awhile until i get my senses about it again. For years i shot a lot of 1911 and revolver because that's what my buddies dad would bring out of us to shoot and when he would come home from the military it was always come out to the property and shoot so a lot of 45acp and 38spl went downrange and with the couple S&W revolvers he had i swear i could stand at 25yards and rapid fire all 6rds and hit a 3'' shoot n c target 5 out of 6 shots. For some reason automatics unless its a 1911 don't really point all that well for me and my training is always as long as you can hit it in the center mass its good. I thought about switching over to some sort of tru glo sights for a finer sight to help me hit those smaller targets and my m&p has several grip options so i plan on playing with those a little.

One more question do you guys run higher velocity loads for these types of shooting or something a little softer and why?

 

[ATLDave]

For the most part, these aren't really precision-shooting games. It's never a bad thing to be able to hit small targets at distance on demand, but that's not most of what these matches usually are about.

You will find that many people in these games tend towards heavier-for-caliber bullets in order to make PF with lower velocities (and less powder, which means less recoil/blast).

I shoot LTD major power factor in USPSA, which means I'm pushing a .40 bullet to get to a 165+ PF. I run 220's, because I don't have to push them hard at all to make PF. But that's mostly preference.

All of this will get much easier to figure out once you shoot a match or two.

 

[Axis II]

For the most part, these aren't really precision-shooting games. It's never a bad thing to be able to hit small targets at distance on demand, but that's not most of what these matches usually are about.

You will find that many people in these games tend towards heavier-for-caliber bullets in order to make PF with lower velocities (and less powder, which means less recoil/blast).

I shoot LTD major power factor in USPSA, which means I'm pushing a .40 bullet to get to a 165+ PF. I run 220's, because I don't have to push them hard at all to make PF. But that's mostly preference.

All of this will get much easier to figure out once you shoot a match or two.

I didn't see anything in their rules about powder factor so i think im okay with 124gr RMR MW. I will ask all this when i send out the emails and also like 9mm epiphany said ask about new shooters.

 

[ATLDave]

That match may not have a power factor requirement. So shoot whatever will run your gun and is accurate enough to hit stuff!

USPA and IDPA both have power factor requirements, but it wouldn't generally require especially powerful rounds. In USPSA, unless you're shooting Open (guns with optics, comps, huge magazines... space blasters, basically), 9mm is going to be minor scoring. 125 PF is all you need. With 124's, anything over 1010 fps gets you there. At larger matches, like state championships, they'll chrono your ammo through your gun to see if it gets there. That's not realistically something to be too worried about at smaller matches, especially when you're starting out.

More useful stuff to work on: Gun handling (draws and reloads and loading empty gun on the clock), uprange starts (turn then draw), moving left and right and uprange with the muzzle of the gun staying pointed downrange at the berm, and reholstering without sweeping your weak hand. Also, I suggest practicing picking up a dropped magazine while keeping the muzzle downrange... it's amazing how many new competitors DQ themselves because they fumble a reload, reach for the mag on the deck with their weak hand, and swing the gun behind them with their right!

 

[thomas15]

Again I agree with Dave. As far as ammo in 9mm production (I shoot G17s) I use heavy 147g plated RN and fast powders such as TG to make powerfactor but I try to have it as close to the lower limit as possible. Almost everyone around here that shoots 9mm uses either plated or coated. In my 929 I use 135g bullets so nothing lighter than that and never jacketed.

I go with what works at the lowest cost. If you get into this you may find yourself consuming serious amounts of ammo. The reloading components that everyone talks to death about in the reloading sub-forum here are not what in my experience are used by the competitors that I speak with. I think I know 1 person that shoots competitions that uses CFE Pistol, which is similar to Power Pistol, everyone uses Bullseye or TG (fast powders) but I haven't spoken to everyone but perhaps you get my point.

 

[Axis II]

Again I agree with Dave. As far as ammo in 9mm production (I shoot G17s) I use heavy 147g plated RN and fast powders such as TG to make powerfactor but I try to have it as close to the lower limit as possible. Almost everyone around here that shoots 9mm uses either plated or coated. In my 929 I use 135g bullets so nothing lighter than that and never jacketed.

I go with what works at the lowest cost. If you get into this you may find yourself consuming serious amounts of ammo. The reloading components that everyone talks to death about in the reloading sub-forum here are not what in my experience are used by the competitors that I speak with. I think I know 1 person that shoots competitions that uses CFE Pistol, which is similar to Power Pistol, everyone uses Bullseye or TG (fast powders) but I haven't spoken to everyone but perhaps you get my point.

Is there a reason you run only plated or coated? I compared Extreme plated to RMR matchwinner and the price even with extremes sales is comparable by a dollar or two. Isn't TG and bullseye a cheaper powder? I think that's what your trying to say? I looked into BE86 and seen it comes in at under $30 for 2lbs I figured its raved about on here and also pretty cheap seeing how you get 2lbs but that might have been a website typo. I'm open to as many suggestions as I can get though.

 

[thomas15]

Is there a reason you run only plated or coated? I compared Extreme plated to RMR matchwinner and the price even with extremes sales is comparable by a dollar or two. Isn't TG and bullseye a cheaper powder? I think that's what your trying to say? I looked into BE86 and seen it comes in at under $30 for 2lbs I figured its raved about on here and also pretty cheap seeing how you get 2lbs but that might have been a website typo. I'm open to as many suggestions as I can get though.

I'm not trying to talk you out of using jacketed bullets or BE86. But I cannot think of anyone off the top of my head that uses them. I'm sure many do though. There isn't any advantage and they cost more so why do it?

Since I know that I'm shooting close to 10k rounds/year I buy 4-5k bullets at a time. With shipping and all I pay 6-7 cents/ bullet compared to 10 or more cents for jacketed a difference of $300.00/year. I use only federal primers and they are 3-4 cents each, you can buy S&B usually for 2 cents at quantity. I don't have a brass supply problem.

I don't use Titegroup to save money over BE86 but I have no problem buying it for about $21.00/pound, I buy it in 8 pound kegs, I get more than 2000 rounds per pound. The reason for using a fast powder for me is I get a softer shooting round with fast powders and heavier bullets. My steel challenge 9mm revolver load is a real bunny fart load, I use HP-38 for that and 105g SWC Bayou Bullets that I get for 6 cents each, shoots like a 22.

As far as BE86 goes I insinuated above what guys in the reloading forum love, and I don't mean to sound mean but they are not shooting the volume and at the rate a lot of competitors do. If I were shooting 10 rounds from a magazine in 3 or 4 minutes at a paper target that I'm tossing in the trash then waiting 10 minutes before shooting again, I probably wouldn't care about recoil much either but when you start shooting 40 rounds in less than a minute and repeat for 8 stages and paying $40.00+ entry fee and traveling 100 miles then you start to consider other things. BE86 is for me way too slow burning, dirty at light loads and I cannot get the recoil recovery I get with TG, especally if your using a light bullet like a 115g. It's not that I don't like it but there are better solutions for me. I shot a hosefest match in late 2016 that used up 460 rounds. Even with light loads my hands were beginning to get tender. I have found that even the uber expensive and highly regarded N320 will gum up the works if you use too light of a charge.

I go to the range and my practice will consume 300-350 rounds 9mm. I need quick recovery, not a lot of flash and bang. I laugh when guys recommend power pistol. I personally don't want the attention using that powder gives the shooter LOL!

One thing you will quickly discover in competitions is that even in production class the serious ones have a considerable amount of money tied up in their gear. True you can get started and do well with standard over the counter tackle but once you commit things can get a tad expensive and as a handloader we want from our ammo what we cannot get from factory. An example, I have a safariland holster for IDPA revolver I think I paid about $40.00 for it. A few speed loader holders and speed loaders and a standard leather carry belt. Less than $200.00 invested. For USPSA, ICORE and Steel Challenge I use a DAA Racemaster holster, DAA moonclip holders (8 on my belt) and a DAA competition belt, all illegal in IDPA. The entire assy costs over $550.00 I didn't get all of this at the beginning but this is where you might be headed just saying.

 

[Axis II]

I'm not trying to talk you out of using jacketed bullets or BE86. But I cannot think of anyone off the top of my head that uses them. I'm sure many do though. There isn't any advantage and they cost more so why do it?

Since I know that I'm shooting close to 10k rounds/year I buy 4-5k bullets at a time. With shipping and all I pay 6-7 cents/ bullet compared to 10 or more cents for jacketed a difference of $300.00/year. I use only federal primers and they are 3-4 cents each, you can buy S&B usually for 2 cents at quantity. I don't have a brass supply problem.

I don't use Titegroup to save money over BE86 but I have no problem buying it for about $21.00/pound, I buy it in 8 pound kegs, I get more than 2000 rounds per pound. The reason for using a fast powder for me is I get a softer shooting round with fast powders and heavier bullets. My steel challenge 9mm revolver load is a real bunny fart load, I use HP-38 for that and 105g SWC Bayou Bullets that I get for 6 cents each, shoots like a 22.

As far as BE86 goes I insinuated above what guys in the reloading forum love, and I don't mean to sound mean but they are not shooting the volume and at the rate a lot of competitors do. If I were shooting 10 rounds from a magazine in 3 or 4 minutes at a paper target that I'm tossing in the trash then waiting 10 minutes before shooting again, I probably wouldn't care about recoil much either but when you start shooting 40 rounds in less than a minute and repeat for 8 stages and paying $40.00+ entry fee and traveling 100 miles then you start to consider other things. BE86 is for me way too slow burning, dirty at light loads and I cannot get the recoil recovery I get with TG, especally if your using a light bullet like a 115g. It's not that I don't like it but there are better solutions for me. I shot a hosefest match in late 2016 that used up 460 rounds. Even with light loads my hands were beginning to get tender.

I go to the range and my practice will consume 300-350 rounds 9mm. I need quick recovery, not a lot of flash and bang. I laugh when guys recommend power pistol. I personally don't want the attention using that powder gives the shooter LOL!

One thing you will quickly discover in competitions is that even in production class the serious ones have a considerable amount of money tied up in their gear. True you can get started and do well with standard over the counter tackle but once you commit things can get a tad expensive and as a handloader we want from our ammo what we cannot get from factory. An example, I have a safariland holster for IDPA revolver I think I paid about $40.00 for it. A few speed loader holders and speed loaders and a standard leather carry belt. Less than $200.00 invested. For USPSA, ICORE and Steel Challenge I use a DAA Racemaster holster, DAA moonclip holders (8 on my belt) and a DAA competition belt, all illegal in IDPA. The entire assy costs over $550.00 I didn't get all of this at the beginning but this is where you might be headed just saying.

I got to say u da man! I enjoy how members such as yourself give a full breakdown as to why and not just 2 words.

I figured you were making out cheaper buying large quantities of bullets so they would be cheaper than jacketed. My fun money is very limited so I am limited to a max of 1K bullets say every 4-6 months. I have about 1k stashed away from 6 month ago. when I ran extremes 124gr RN 20% off against RMR it was like $2 difference. I like supporting mom n pop places and I get that $2 will add up over time. I still have some pricing to check though so not set in stone.

I like the light recoiling you mention with titegroup. I find it hard to get back on target with snappy stuff that gives me a lot of muzzle flip. I was shooting the 2-3 matches at my club last summer and some of the pie plate challenges was timer goes off and hit each plate 2 times from 25yards and the factory ammo I had was just too snappy I swear I was shooting a 454 cassul. lol.

 

[ATLDave]

I have found that even the uber expensive and highly regarded N320 ...

Great post, thomas. However, anytime someone starts talking about N320 being expensive, this is my answer:



It really is almost magical in its combination of light recoil for PF and very reliable velocities.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It really is almost magical in its combination of light recoil for PF and very reliable velocities.

While I don't shoot 9mm as a primary cartridge, this has also been my experience.

I tried out Titegroup once, got an 8 lb jug and sold it for more than I paid after using about a pound of it.

I thought it ran "hot" and was very limited in it's charge weight range. It is very popular, but I've found that it's popularity was closely tied to it's lower cost/lb

 

[thomas15]

I like supporting mom n pop places and I get that $2 will add up over time. I still have some pricing to check though so not set in stone.

Your reasoning for supporting who you support is good. We are of course free to buy from whom we want and for whatever reason we want so I cannot argue with your reasoning.

When I go to a match I check the sponsor list and prize table for donated items and I try my best to support those companies. If there is (for example) something I want to buy and it is available on amazon and midway and amazon is less expensive I pay the extra because I have not once seen amazon supporting the shooting sports while midway is all over it. I even write letters to sponsors thanking them for their support and when I buy from them put a note of thanks in the comments section. Personally and this may be a regional thing, but I have never seen some of the compnies (that guys on the reloading forum throw dollar after dollar at) sponsor/support anything that I participate in.

ON EDIT: Please don't take what I say as me trying to lecture you, not my intention.

A story...last year I was on staff for the East Coast Steel Challenge Championship match. Words cannot fully express just how awesome this match is. Well run, highly organized, sold out months in advance, shooters, many of them at the top of the game from all over the country. A huge prize table. Total fun weekend.

They have a facebook page and regular website, check them out to see who it is that is sponsoring and supporting this event. This is of course only one of many events held nationwide and all year long but many of my buying decisions are made by who supports this pastime.

 

[Axis II]

Your reasoning for supporting who you support is good. We are of course free to buy from whom we want and for whatever reason we want so I cannot argue with your reasoning.

When I go to a match I check the sponsor list and prize table for donated items and I try my best to support those companies. If there is (for example) something I want to buy and it is available on amazon and midway and amazon is less expensive I pay the extra because I have not once seen amazon supporting the shooting sports while midway is all over it. I even write letters to sponsors thanking them for their support and when I buy from them put a note of thanks in the comments section. Personally and this may be a regional thing, but I have never seen some of the compnies (that guys on the reloading forum throw dollar after dollar at) sponsor/support anything that I participate in.

ON EDIT: Please don't take what I say as me trying to lecture you, not my intention.

A story...last year I was on staff for the East Coast Steel Challenge Championship match. Words cannot fully express just how awesome this match is. Well run, highly organized, sold out months in advance, shooters, many of them at the top of the game from all over the country. A huge prize table. Total fun weekend.

They have a facebook page and regular website, check them out to see who it is that is sponsoring and supporting this event. This is of course only one of many events held nationwide and all year long but many of my buying decisions are made by who supports this pastime.

Not lecturing at all.

I compiled a list of every bullet company, reloading website, etc about a year ago and recently deleted it but will be doing this again to check prices. I got into reloading to save some money so it does make sense to buy from the cheapest source.

 

[egd]

2 things
Cheapest ain't always the best deal, but I too look for price mostly.
You say you use 1K every 4-6 months. If you get into action shooting stuff, and if the bug bites you like most of us, expect that to go up drastically. I go through about 1K per month, but I shoot a shoot almost every weekend, and the steel shoots I use both pistol and pcc.
Well 3 things---try them all for a few shoots each, then settle on what you like best.

 

[thomas15]

exactly right egd.

Again I'm not trying to disparage anyone here but to the OP allow me to say in plain simple language that if it is the case that your primary exposure to other shooters is on forums such as this then you might get a slightly off-beat picture of what is common among those who compete. When I started out in competitions I used what I already had (which you should do also) and shot the lest expensive ammo from walmart. If I were asked by someone interested in competitions what is needed I very well might have said get exactly what I have. But as experience starts to take hold we learn that most that are serious do not use entry level gear or low cost ammo.

So getting back to the reloading sub forums, if everything I knew about it came from those sources I probably would think that everyone in the world reads one particular book on how to handload, uses one particular turret press, buys one particular smokeless powder and one particular make of bullet because that is 80% of what everyone there talks about. In my experience, which is not exhaustive by any stretch of the imagination, is that hardly anyone uses those particular items. Think about it, as far as presses go, if you need 1000+ rounds of 9mm every month you want to have gear that punches them out as fast as possible, forget that being noble and resisting the urge to be a "tool snob".

I keep my firearms as clean as possible. Mostly because I want everything to be as consistent as I can get it. If I shoot a match on any particular Saturday, I might leave the house at 06:00, leave the range for home at 12:30, arrive back at home at 14:30, spend an hour and a half cleaning up and storing my gear. Now I'm going to spend 3 hours replenishing my ammo supply because I have a $100.00 turret press? Because guys on forum XYZ think its the best deal out there? What about mowing the lawn, painting the house, changing oil in the car, cleaning up the garage? I still work full time so there is a limit on my free time.

If you want to just have fun and there is noting wrong with that, just use whatever gear you have and spend as little money as possible. If having fun translates into doing well, which is the majority thinking on the subject, then a bit more commitment is required. I know that if, for example, I want to move from B shooter to A in steel challenge this year I have to get the gun out and dry fire at least 4 days/week. All this takes time and energy. I love it when after a week of intense practice my scores at the weekend match are better than the last one. While I'm not impressing anyone by my abilities, I can say that guys that blew my doors off 2 years ago, who I thought I could never ever beat, are not looking so invincible to me anymore.

I guess to summarize what I'm trying to say is get out and try it. Use what you have. Then, if your interest level pushes you in the direction of getting more involved be open minded. Talk to others and find out exactly what they use. Most are more than willing to share. Guys use the things they use because they work well and offer the best results. I was at a match not too long ago where one guy had his pickup truck literally filled to overflowing with a bulk purchase of a particular coated bullet that no one ever talks about on the forums but you see fairly common at matches. This guy with the truck organized a group purchase for probably 10 other guys and they were taking delivery of their bullets. I bet there were 100,000 bullets in the bed of that truck.

 

[ATLDave]

Good post, although I got all the way to A in USPSA shooting 100% of my ammo by loading on a LCT!

Of course, I did a much higher ratio of dry-fire to live-fire than you describe, which probably explains why it took me several years!

 

[Axis II]

Once again thanks everyone for the info. I plan on doing about one match a month cause $ is tight. I got some bullet shopping to do and taking advantage of the s&b primers this weekend.

 

[WessonOil]

You'll be quite fine with your MP9.
I can draw pretty much just as quickly from my Fobus holster as I can my competition holster.
I use Blackhawk brand mag holsters...they are good quality and have a good price point.
I'd have a minimum of three mags.
Look into using a low recoil heavier bullet.
Be safe, have fun...in that order.

 

[Dudedog]

I'm not trying to talk you out of using jacketed bullets or BE86. But I cannot think of anyone off the top of my head that uses them. I'm sure many do though. There isn't any advantage and they cost more so why do it?

From USPSA Front Sight surveys it seems quite a few people use jacketed bullets, Limited Nationals 50% jacketed, Single Stack Nationals 36% jacketed, loaned the magazine with the Production Nationals survey to a friend so I don't have the production #s..
Do lots of people shoot coated and plated, yes. Coated/Jacketed are probably about a tie, plated behind. Some people are shooting lubed lead. Nothing wrong with any of the choices.
Use what shoots well for you at the price you want to pay.


Nothing at all wrong with the RMR 124gr FN-FMJ jacketed, an excellent choice IMO. They shoot well and are not much more if any than the plated or coated options.
The RMR 124gr FN FMJs shot well for me, but I like the 124 MPR JHPs a bit better.
Plated Xtreme 124s not on sale are about $43/500 so $86/K + shipping. The jacketed options from RMR (which I think are better bullets) are right in the same price range.
I paid $240/3K MPRs JHPs so $80/k shipped with the code.
3K MBC coated would be about $210 plus the $15 or so shipping so there is not much to be saved shooting coated or plated at normal non sale prices.
As mentioned you need 125 PF for minor so 1010fps with a 124/125. I like to load to about 1030ish to give myself some wiggle room.
I have never been chronoed at the lower level matches I shoot but I want to make sure I am good in case. Be a real pain if the loads all shot 10 fps slow 1000fps for 124 PF and PF does not round,
124.9 is 124. Don't make 125 PF sorry no score. (major guys after 165 PF would get bumped down to minor as long as their loads made 125)
Lots of people prefer heaver bullets that 124s. Since power factor is weight * vel you can make power factor with a lower energy 147gr bullet load than you can with a 124.
However I like 124s myself, the RMR 124s shoot well for me and the price is right and the company is great to do business with.
I also sort of go against the grain because I prefer a slower burning powder. (current favorite is WSF) BE86 is about the same burn speed if you like BE86.
To me the slower powder is more of a push than a snap, it feels better to me. Most people seem to prefer faster powders light Titegroup/N320.

So I would say use what you have on hand load up some ammo to about 128-130 PF (1030-1050fps) and go for it.
You can worry about fine tuning ammo later.
Kind of funny the loads I like to shoot for practice/fun before I cared about PF turned out to be right around 125 PF.

I feel when starting out USPSA any reasonable gun and ammo that shoots well won't be holding you back, lots of things going on, loading, moving, target transitions etc.