Active Shooter Studies of benefits of CCW

[Deaf Smith]

Just shows you that active shooters CAN be stopped by good folk with guns.

TTAG Simulated School Shooting Experiment — Results and Analysis
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ool-shooting-experiment-results-and-analysis/

Purdue expert, students study active shooters in schools
http://www.wthr.com/story/24536065/...ert-students-study-active-shooters-in-schools

Deaf

 

[VoodooMountain]

Just a few days ago I read a story about an active shooter at an Oregon university that was stopped by an armed individual, likely security.

We keep hearing about these massacres but nobody mentions that a massacre consists of both an armed attacker and an unarmed/defenseless group.
Gun free zones have killed too many people and should be mostly abolished.

 

[BigBore44]

MOSTLY abolished? Voodoo, bad things happen everywhere. Where do the most high casualty shootings occur? It's rhetorical. GF zones. So why "mostly" abolish them?

 

[Deaf Smith]

So why "mostly" abolish them?

Cause a few of them are not really "gun free". They have a serious level of armed guards. The White House is an example.

But most "gun free" zones consist of a sign and not much else.

Deaf

 

[strambo]

Oregon has the CCW laws fairly squared away. The only places you cant carry are court houses & jail at the state level and secure fed bldgs, post office and airport. Schools, bars all ok, there are no "no ccw" sign provisions. So, the gun free zones are only created by the schools and businesses prohibiting employee carry, not by law.

As an aside, it was nice to see Simunition FoF done right (safely) in the first video.

 

[Bo]

So, you're in a nightclub, active shooter appears, starts firing, you whip out you concealed carry weapon to defend yourself.
Another CCW, who doesn't know where the shots came from, suddenly sees you with a gun in your hand and shoots you thinking you're the shooter.
Moral of the story, unless you are in imminent danger, it may not be a good idea to pull out a gun in a crowded area.
Just my $.02 worth.

 

[captainamerica]

I totally agree. Having a lawfully owned and CCW permit backed handgun in an active shooter situation is priceless but if it is brought out there is absolutely a chance someone within the shooting area, a LEO or a responding Good Samaritan could mistake the firearm/user for one of the criminals / terrorists.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Oh bullstuffings.

There have been several cases of CCW holders stopping mass shooters and NO ONE HAS SHOT THE CCW HOLDER.

And tons of cases of CCW holders stopping robberies at restaurants and quik-shop places and NO ONE HAS SHOT THE CCW HOLDER.

And it's done in Israel all the time!

Get a life guys instead of this 'what if'.

As the studies showed, one person armed can most certinaly stop mass shooters.

Deaf

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Oh bullstuffings.

There have been several cases of CCW holders stopping mass shooters and NO ONE HAS SHOT THE CCW HOLDER.

And tons of cases of CCW holders stopping robberies at restaurants and quik-shop places and NO ONE HAS SHOT THE CCW HOLDER.

And it's done in Israel all the time!

Get a life guys instead of this 'what if'.

As the studies showed, one person armed can most certinaly stop mass shooters.

Deaf

While there may be no recordings of such events it's pretty arrogant/ignorant to assume there's no possibility of such a situation.

Just today I was in a Target where I passed by not one but two other folks CC'ing. Obviously they were not doing a very good job at hiding it. Had I been carrying that would've made three separate people CC'ing in different locations of the store. If a nut job scenario HAD happened, it does not seem by any means unreasonable to think that there might be the possibility of "friendly fire".


Ideally training would negate that most of the time. You hear all the time about identifying your target, but you should also identify what they're shooting at immediately in order to properly assess. Situational awareness is key.

Given that one of the guys I passed was on his smart phone oblivious to the world and the other was busy keeping a munchkin in check trying to keep up with his wife, I would certainly wonder about their reaction given any kind of defensive situation, much less a "mass shooting".

 

[BigBore44]

Good Ol' Boy,
The possibility exists for almost any scenario to end badly. But you gotta play the odds when in the presence of an active shooter. That's all you really can do. And I like my odds should that day come. Though I pray it never does. Carrying a weapon is a choice that we make. And with that choice comes risk. Do you want to be a shepherd or a sheep. Sometimes shepherds get hurt while protecting their flock. But a sheep is completely at the mercy of the wolf.

 

[strambo]

Of course there is always a possibility of a CCW holder getting shot by another good guy or a bystander getting accidentally shot by a CCW holder.

Know what is really dangerous? An active shooter free to shoot whomsoever they please with no opposition.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Good Ol' Boy,
The possibility exists for almost any scenario to end badly. But you gotta play the odds when in the presence of an active shooter. That's all you really can do. And I like my odds should that day come. Though I pray it never does. Carrying a weapon is a choice that we make. And with that choice comes risk. Do you want to be a shepherd or a sheep. Sometimes shepherds get hurt while protecting their flock. But a sheep is completely at the mercy of the wolf.

I was simply saying that his statement was naive at best. The possibility of another CC'er engaging you by accident is not something to shrug off. At least be aware that the possibility is there and keep your awareness at 110%.

And I will be carrying soon enough, so I think that answers the rest of your post.

 

[BigBore44]

Good Ol' Boy,
It's not niavity. It's prioritizing and compartmentalizing. You cannot have that fear of being shot by another good guy. Situational awareness is essential. But if you take your focus off the real threat because your worried someone else might think your a bad guy and shoot you, then you have just dedicated neurological resources to something that may or may not be present. While the real threat IS present. It's part of "threat assessment". It's not "what if". The only thing to worry about is "what is". I commend you carrying. I really do. And I hope you're never in a situation to have to use your weapon.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Simple remedy folks.

Just do in the bad guy and then holster the gun while keeping your eyeballs pealed.

See 'active shooters' they to not look exactly like other folk. AK/AR/etc in hand, black commando garb or long coat to hide the gun, etc.. Regular folk wear, well regular folk stuff. Nutjobs, they kind of stand out. You won't see 'Leave it to Beaver' mom or dad just run in firing (but do note, anyone just running in firing at folk will sort of self identify they are a nutjob.)

Just engage the nutjob, do the deed, holster, and scan.

I doubt you will have a big problem but it would be cool if a nutjob shouts "allah akbar" while waving a AK, and ten of the local patrons all draw and cap 'em simultaneously.

Sort of like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmTvAZvJ5Mc

Deaf

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Good Ol' Boy,
It's not niavity. It's prioritizing and compartmentalizing. You cannot have that fear of being shot by another good guy. Situational awareness is essential. But if you take your focus off the real threat because your worried someone else might think your a bad guy and shoot you, then you have just dedicated neurological resources to something that may or may not be present. While the real threat IS present. It's part of "threat assessment". It's not "what if". The only thing to worry about is "what is". I commend you carrying. I really do. And I hope you're never in a situation to have to use your weapon.

I think we're splitting hairs at this point. I agree getting shot by another CC'er shouldn't be a forefront worry, but it goes to tactics and awareness.

If you saw a fat guy with a pistol drawn in a Wal Mart would you immediately draw on him or check what exactly he's doing? Is he aiming/shooting at bystanders or the guy with an AR 20ft away? Of course (I hope all here) would check first to assess. But you can't say for certain that everyone out there CC'ing would.

As a "first to engage" scenario we can't let that deter us, but in a "second on scene" scenario we must take the time to assess.


My point was simply not everyone will take the time to assess. Deaf's post that I originally responded to made it sound like that scenario was not even remotely possible when in fact it is, that's all I was saying.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Deaf's post that I originally responded to made it sound like that scenario was not even remotely possible when in fact it is, that's all I was saying.

Ok, I agree, it is remotely possible. Remotely.

Deaf

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Ok, I agree, it is remotely possible. Remotely.

Deaf

I gather some sarcasm in the that post, maybe it's just me.

It's "remote" that the majority of us will ever be in any kind of SD situation at all (hopefully not), yet we still train/plan for it no?

As I mentioned catching friendly fire shouldn't be on the forefront but surely on the back burner, especially if you are the second to engage.

 

[FAS1]

I would concentrate more on where most of your time is spent, such as a place of business or office. How about just a disgruntled employee or deranged person looking for revenge. Like the Oklahoma City be-heading a couple years ago or just a ex spouse/boyfriend looking for their ex.

Active Shooter Scenario Training Video

 

[Deaf Smith]

I gather some sarcasm in the that post, maybe it's just me.

It's "remote" that the majority of us will ever be in any kind of SD situation at all (hopefully not), yet we still train/plan for it no?

As I mentioned catching friendly fire shouldn't be on the forefront but surely on the back burner, especially if you are the second to engage.

No, it's remotely possible while changing a light bulb I'll have a heart attack.

But I'll concentrate on changing the light bulb and not worry much about the heart attack.

See you are saying it's remote we will even be involved in a SD situation. But being in an active shooter situation is remote to the remote SD situation. And then having to worry about another CCW holder shooting at you would be remote to the remote to the remote.

So with an active shooters I'll just work on that problem. And like I said, never been a case of CCW shooting CCW holder during an active shooter attack (and no doubt the press would LOVE to publicize one if it happened.)

Oh, BTW, I have one burglar and one purse snatcher to my credit in 61 years. So I know a SD situation can happen.

Deaf

 

[gillmeister692]

Well, if a shooter were INACTIVE, no action would be required, would it?

 

[Plan2Live]

And like I said, never been a case of CCW shooting CCW holder during an active shooter attack (and no doubt the press would LOVE to publicize one if it happened.)

Not exactly the scenario being discussed but more applicable than heart attacks and light bulbs is the somewhat recent event where there was a shooter outside a police station and an undercover officer in plain clothes was killed by another LEO while the covert cop was trying to engage the bad guy. That might equate to remote cubed but the good guy is still dead.

One more example of a squirrel killed after making the wrong decision.

 

[Creature]

Just shows you that active shooters CAN be stopped by good folk with guns.

Was there really any doubt?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Was there really any doubt?

Apparently for some it seems so hazardous they don't wanna try.

One more example of a squirrel killed after making the wrong decision.

Well if it's not making a decision you are right.

Now about doing the 'wrong' thing..

Long time ago Jeff Cooper opined that if one makes a poor plan, but executed so fast it cannot be intelligently countered, then it was a good plan.

So wrong, or right, do something but do it FAST. Better than standing there in a vapor lock.

Deaf

 

[Old Guy]

Good Ol' Boy;

Why were you not carrying in Target? I carry always.

The reason you draw and kill someone, out in public? They produce a weapon, rifle or pistol, and start firing indiscriminately into the shoppers.

On your first shot, you call out "Armed Security Officer" I am, mostly to hopefully, stop someone shooting me.

Even though I have never heard that happening in the past.

Were are the majority of people now? Running for the way out! Not looking who is doing what.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Good Ol' Boy;

Why were you not carrying in Target? I carry always.

The reason you draw and kill someone, out in public? They produce a weapon, rifle or pistol, and start firing indiscriminately into the shoppers.

On your first shot, you call out "Armed Security Officer" I am, mostly to hopefully, stop someone shooting me.

Even though I have never heard that happening in the past.

Were are the majority of people now? Running for the way out! Not looking who is doing what.

I'm waiting on my CHP.

Your second sentence, how do you know they are indiscriminately firing at innocents? You assess. That was my point.

Do you not think it possible there are people out there CC'ing that might just take one look at you with your pistol drawn and engage you, not knowing about the nut with an AR across the store whom you were aiming at?

As Plan2Live mentioned, it can happen, although maybe not likely. With the amount of people buying firearms and presumably carrying it seems more likely than a heart attack or electrocution by light bulb though. Who know's?


My point was to asses if second on scene and to just be aware of the possibility if first to engage, that's all.