Advice re. .308/7.62 guns and ammo.

[Bart B.]

Kristie,

The original BM59's were made with original Garand receivers, bolts and most other parts. Only the barrel and some other parts so the detachable magazine would work were different. Later ones had Baretta made parts with quality equal to original Garand parts.

Some of the 7.62 NATO loads used in military issued match grade M1 and M14 rifles produced virtually proof load pressures (67,000 cup) without any function or reliability issues whatsoever. Better accuracy than M118 and M852 match ammo.

 

[Sunray]

"...loading it all for .308 and shooting it in the 7.62 rifle anyway..." 50 years ago(1966 sniff.), there was no Internet that had decided .308 and 7.62NATO are different.
Millions of rounds have been loaded in both milsurp and commercial cases and fired out of any rifle chambered in .308 or 7.62NATO with no fuss. As mentioned, there is no 7.62NATO reloading kit. Just .308 Win.
"...would measuring the headspace tell me..." No.
"...decided not to reload, being scared..." Ain't nothin' to be scared of.

 

[Kristie]

I wouldn't say there's nothing to be scared of when you're basically making small explosives. Haven't you heard of the guys that loaded their rounds too hot and blew up their guns?

 

[Kristie]

Here are a couple of the labels.

 

[Reloadron]

Normal looking labels to me. Really in line with standard 308 loads. Take the first label for example:
Caliber 308
Case RP Com (Remington Peters Commercial)
Primer RP (Remington Peters)
Powder 4064 (Implies IMR 4064 a very common 308 powder)
Wt. 45 grains (45 grains of IMR 4064 a common loading)
Bullet WW (Winchester Western)
Point FMJBT (Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail bullet type and point)
Wt. 147 gr (The bullet weight is 147 grains which is pretty standard)

His load of 45 grains of IMR 4064 powder with the 147 grain FMJBT bullet while a little on the hot side is not beyond reason. My Speer #12 manual for a 150 grain FMJBT (close enough) using IMR 4064 starts at 43 grains and the Max Load is 47 grains. My Sierra 50th Anniversary manual gives a range of start 40.0 grains and Maximum 48.2 grains and my Hornady 9th Edition starts with 38.4 grains and a Maximum of 44.9 grains. Keep in mind the manuals are a guideline so the fact that the Hornady loads Maximum is a tad lighter means nothing. The gentleman who loaded these likely worked up his loads and loaded for his rifles.

There is really not much else to say on this?

I wouldn't say there's nothing to be scared of when you're basically making small explosives. Haven't you heard of the guys that loaded their rounds too hot and blew up their guns?

Yes, and complacency kills. A good hand loader pays attention to detail and remains focused on the task at hand. Heck, I can get killed crossing the street if I stop paying attention.

All I can tell you is I would shoot the rounds. What you choose to do is up to you. All you will get here is suggestions so take things for what they are worth. If the thought of shooting this stuff has you so worried you freak at the thought of squeezing the trigger than trash the stuff. Matters not to me what you decide to do. What would I do? I told you.

Ron

 

[Bart B.]

The fears that promulgated through the shooting sports about 308 and 7.62 ammo started at the DCM matches' Small Arms Firing School for civilians in the 1964 (1963?) Nationals at Camp Perry. Military instructors told attendees not to shoot 308 ammo in their issued 7.62 military rifles (and viseversa)for safety reasons. The attendees later looked up 308 pressure specs from SAAMI and 7.62's from MILSPEC sources.

They saw that Winchester used 52,000 cup and MILSPEC for the NATO was 50,000 cup. Unaware that Winchester's SAAMI spec system was slightly different than what arsenals used. That was the first popular reason to not shoot commercial ammo in service rifles. But it was stated by arsenals in MILSPEC documents as psi, not cup.

Some years later when piezo transducer systems accurately measured chamber pressures in psi numbers, commercial 308 ammo was speced by SAAMI at 62,000 psi. When people saw that pressure listed for 308 knowing 7.62 ammo was listed at 50,000 psi, that opened the flood gates and millions were afraid to shoot commercial ammo in their military chambered rifles.

Thousands are still afraid. And MILSPEC now lists 7.62 pressure in psi that's almos identical to numbers in 308 SAAMI specs. There's about a 10% spread allowed.

 

[Kristie]

Okay, well, I think everyone has talked this one out well enough. I appreciate the opinions and knowledge. I couldn't have made the same arguments in my own head because I don't have the experience you guys do. That's why I love this kind of place. Very helpful. Thanks a bunch! I think I will go ahead and just shoot it and not worry too much.

 

[kBob]

Absolutely no way I would fire anyone else's reloads in a BM-59. I would shoot ONLY mil spec 7.62 NATO FMJ in a BM-59 or my own reloads on 7.62 Nato brass loaded with powders to give that pressure at the gas port.......just like
.30 M2 in a Garand.

When I get unknown reloads I use the inertia bullet puller and toss the powder, pop the primers, and start over with the salvaged cases and bullets.

-kBob

 

[dogmush]

As a kind of middle of the road option:

You said:

Nah, I already gave the reloading stuff to my brother. If he figures it out, maybe I'll let him teach me.

Which implies there's a scale. Borrow it back, and pull a sample of the rounds. Break a sample down and weigh the charges. If the charges of a random sample match the labels, and the labels are all kinda mid load (those two are, and load data is available free online) you can probably shoot it with no reservations. If you weigh a couple charges that all are supposed to be 45 gr, and some are 42, some are 47, some are 45, then you might want to rethink it.

Just a thought.

 

[Kristie]

Dogmush, yeah, that's not a terrible idea actually. I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.

 

[Swampman]

most are foreign headstamps, most with the NATO cross

Could you possibly post pictures of some of the foreign NATO headstamps?

Aside from Canadian production, the vast majority of foreign 7.62x51 ammo marked with the NATO "cross in circle" is Berdan primed and not easily reloadable.

It's fairly common for folks to reload Berdan primed cases these days, but back when brass was much cheaper, most people wouldn't have bothered with reloading Berdan primed brass in a readily available caliber like 7.62x51/.308.

 

[Kristie]

Sure, I can do that Swapman. Not sure when, but I'll make a note.

 

[BigBore45]

i think you will be fine to shoot them. i do not think the man would want to blow the gun up and hurt himself. the loads seem to be inline with the caliber as stated above.

shoot one or two and take picks of the case and primer after you fire them. also take note of the ejection pattern and report back.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Now im curious...
Wouldnt any nato case have to be boxer primed, by definition?
At any rate, ive never seen a berdan primed 308/7.62.

 

[Bart B.]

Search the 'net for "7.62 Berdan" and you'll see lots of folks asking about the Berdan primed 7.62 fired cases they have.

 

[Kristie]

Here you go Swampman. Seems like the majority are Lake City. But there are quite a few of those Israeli ones, including the ones that were bad around 80-83. Hope the issue wasn't the casings, but no one seems to know. And the ones on the far right appear not to be reloads.

 

[Reloadron]

The RA stuff is Raufoss (Norma) and should be Boxer Primed Norway stuff. Note the red primer sealant so this stuff is straight military surplus and looks to have never been reloaded. RA is also used on Remington Arms but not configured the way the stuff you have is. Remove a bullet and look down in a case to see how the stuff is primed. For a single round you can twist it out with pliers.

Ron

 

[Swampman]

Kristie, Apologies for not getting back to the thtead sooner, we've had some flooding around here and things have been kinda busy.

Looking at the pics you posted, most of the ammo appears to be factory loads (as best I can tell from looking at a 3 inch phone screen).

The Canadian IVI case at the lower left has definitely had the primer crimp cut out and the Israeli TZ next to it also appears to have had the crimp removed. The rest of them seem to have intact crimps.

The Portuguese BF stuff has definitely never been fired, you can see the 3 stab crimps around each primer. The Lake City all apears to have intact annular primer crimps, as does the Remington stuff (under all that primer sealant). I've probably still got 6 or 8 hundred RA 70 cases and IIRC, it came with huge quantities of that red primer sealant smeared all over the case heads.

The IVI, TZ, LC and RA cases are all Boxer primed, the BF is almost certainly Berdan.

 

[yugorpk]

35 years of shooting .308/7.62 interchangeably in multiple platforms.

They're the same thing. Shoot them, reload them, shoot them again. Keep the fun alive.

 

[barnbwt]

"They saw that Winchester used 52,000 cup and MILSPEC for the NATO was 50,000 cup. Unaware that Winchester's SAAMI spec system was slightly different than what arsenals used. That was the first popular reason to not shoot commercial ammo in service rifles. But it was stated by arsenals in MILSPEC documents as psi, not cup."
The silly part is that the 4% differential, measurement method artifacts or not, is well within the band of loads for pretty much any chambering. Quite similar to the panic between NATO 5.56 and 223, where the former is at most a slightly hot selection of bullet/powder (with the exception of the new M855A1 we civvies don't see much, which I understand is at a significantly higher pressure). Too many folks out there only buy store-bought ammo & have never reloaded, and don't understand just how small a couple of thousandths of an inch really are, and how tiny the differences in powder volume are between the military and sporting loads. Same breed, different color spots, and a bit on the large side; for 308/7.62, they've even got the same DNA

TCB