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...AFTER....they take the guns....

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Some retailers in WV advertise they will scon the back of a DMV license to assure legal age of alcohol/tobacco purchasers. Any state issued ID can be accessed fairly easily by the gov't. While not de jure national ID, it is a de facto national ID. Some want to go further and encode med records in the bar code--or at least an address on a database. I don't know what is on those codes. How much might be there.

The problem with the information is not its use, but its susceptibility to inaccuracy. Some felon gets on a database with a transposed SSN which matches yours, you get stopped for speeding, you go with the officer for a :rolleyes: friendly:rolleyes: chat.

Where is due process.

:confused: Am I being paranoid today?:confused:
 
And without infallible identity verification how is private property going to exist? It's only a matter of time before identity theft is raised to new levels. While you're worrying about the Feds knowing which library books you checked out, you may find that your 401K has been ransacked.
 
If IDs are "bad" then so are the passwords we use to log in on this forum.
Click to expand...

Non-sequitor.

There is a difference between a private agreement, and private identification, and government identification.

One can always choose not to participate in this forum, and unless your mother really named you "longeyes" you're not even identying yourself in this forum.

If anyone's going to ransack my 401k, its due to government mandated POOR identification, such as the universal (and illegal) practice of using the SSN as identification (When it isn't).

By the way, private property has existed for a long time with fallible identification. You're confusing two issues here.

But it always comes down to the constitution, in which there is no authorization for the social security number or any other government ID. And there is a reason-- such IDs violate human rights.
 
I think you mean non sequitur.

IDs violate human rights? And are un-Constitutional? Are you saying
we cannot Constitutionally establish laws that require identification?
Societies depend on identification. Now if you want to be a mountain
man, that's another story... I sure as hell won't stop you.

Longeyes...from a long proud line of Longeyes before me.
 
I used to have my SSN on my Georgia Driver's License, but they changed it to another number to prevent identity theft.

Are we just sort of guessing that there might be a law that requires SSN on driver's licenses by 2005, or does someone know for sure?

Once again the internet spreads misinformation.
 
Yeah, and your new georgia license still has the number on it. In barcode form.

Just cause it isn't printed on the front doesn't mean they aren't using it.

This is a fact. People just don't want to believe it, but that doesn't make it misinformation.
 
IDs violate human rights? And are un-Constitutional? Are you saying
we cannot Constitutionally establish laws that require identification?
Societies depend on identification. Now if you want to be a mountain
man, that's another story... I sure as hell won't stop you.
Click to expand...

Yes, Yes, Yes.

No, societies do not depend on identifcation. Tyrannies do. "Your papers, please!"

Of course you will stop me, you think I should have to get the government's permission to live.

That's what national ID is about-- they establish it, and then they can take it away from whomever they want to punish...

The national ID is a socialist goal-- they want to track, contol, and regulate all their subjects.

There are many forms of ID- you're saying that we have to have one, single, government imposed form of ID for society to function, which is absurd on the face of it.

How is mountain man going to be able to live in his mountain and get food in the town without gas, which he cannot get wihtout his national ID? (To prevent, terrorism, of course. Gas is dangerous, and must be regulated!)
 
Don Galt...

Why exactly, in concrete terms please, will my SSN on my driver's license make any difference?

With my name and driver's license number, they can already determine who I am, and they already know my SSN anyway, after all the government is the one who issued it.

Just tell me how this would be used against me.
 
Just go to your state's drivers licensing website:
On October 1, 2000, the Department of Licensing began the mandatory collection of Social Security Numbers (SSNs) from applicants for original, renewal and replacement driver licenses. This complies with a 1996 federal law that makes the availability of federal welfare funds contingent upon states collecting SSNs to assist in the enforcement of child support laws.

To comply with the federal law, the Legislature passed a law in 1998 requiring the collection of SSNs on applications for professional and occupational licenses, commercial driver licenses, recreational licenses, and marriage licenses. However, the Legislature delayed compliance for the collection of noncommercial driver license SSNs to the federal deadline of Oct. 1, 2000.


Failure to provide a social security number results in an incomplete application and no license will be issued.

The Department of Licensing takes its responsibility to safeguard personal information very seriously. Further, state law prohibits displaying the SSN on a driver license or license document, and safeguards allow access only by those who are legally entitled to this information.
Click to expand...

But of course, your SSN is on the back of your license in machine readable form!

The year 2005 came into the discussion because there was a recent law standardizing the drivers licenses. I errnonously thougt that the SSN requirement was part of that law, rather than a much earlier one.
 
Lone Gunman--

Simple, any theif can run your drivers licens over a barcode reader, get your SSN, and start getting credit cards in your name. Much harder for them to do this when your SSN isn't on your license.

Anyway, you're barking up the "if you have nothing to hide, you wouldn't care" line of argument.... which sounds good until you realize that sometimes what you have to hid is that your grandmother was jewish, or something like that. Or, yeah, that's it, that you voted libertarian in 1992, and in 2012 they were declared terrorists, making you now a "terorrist sympathizer".

Think that's absurd? You haven't been paying attention-- people are regularly having hteir lives destroyed based on the mere allegation that they are dealing with terrorists, and being convicted for doing so when they didn't even know the person in question was a terrorist.

You sold Regina sam al belazza a lollipop when she was six! She killed 30 people last week. Up against the wall! :scrutiny:

If you think I'm paranoid, you just might be a socialist.
 
No, I am really not at all using the "if you have nothing to hide" argument.

My point is, and what I am asking you to clarify, how will the government use my SSN on my driver's license against me?

I realize criminals might steal it, thats not what I am talking about. The government can already run my driver's license through their computers to come up with info about me. How will having the ssn on the card make any difference?
 
Because with out it, you are a state citizen, not a federal subject. State ID is state ID, not federal ID.

Frankly, I think if you can't see the problems with that, then nothing I can say will make you see them.

After all, what's the point? You attacked me for spreading "misinformtion", and when I provided evidence (for the second time, by the way) you never retracted your smear.

You respond to long arguments with irrelevant statements and demands that I prove something to you.

Make a counter argument. Or don't. But I'm done wasting my time only to have you ignore it.
 
OK, Don, sorry to rub you the wrong way. I apologize about the misinformation statement, and appreciate you putting the information backing your position up.

If you don't want to share exactly your concerns about this, thats ok, and I won't push you.

My counter argument is that as far as I can tell, the government already has access to pretty much any info about me that the want, whether or not my ssn is on my driver's license or not, so what's the big deal?

Incidentally, I am actually as paranoid about government intrusion as you, and I am not in favor of the SSN on the driver's license really anyway. But I don't really have a good argument for why I dont want it there, and was hoping someone could help me.
 
Fair enough.

Before this law was passed, many drivers license agencies didn't keep SSNs. There was no way to get them from a drivers license.

Its not that the SSN is on the license-- though that is a danger-- its that the state has your SSN and has no valid reason to need it.
 
Don I was editing my last post just as you were posting, so make sure you re read it.

Doesnt the state already have my SSN from income tax returns? If so, then why does it matter if they get them from my drivers license too?

Please bear with me, I am not trying to be beligerent. If you just don't think the state should have the number, I will accept that as a good enough reason. My question is, do you think the state or federal government has some sinister plan to use this info?
 
Back to reality. The SSN is the only federal number I have. The state also uses the number for income tax purposes. It was getting to the point that the SSN was everywhere, which lead to identity theft (checked your SSN account lately?).

There must be some way to identify US citizens, or corroborate identity. State licensing is questionable as a source of identity. The 9/11 boys used falsely acquired licenses during their deed. California passed a law to give illegal aliens licenses!!!!!! Colorado already decided that such a license would not be honored.

If you want to set up an alternate identity in this country it is very easy. If you want to drop off of the government radars it is simple. You must simply construct an alternate identity, obtain credit, buy a house, etc...

BUT in order to function in this CAPITALIST society and secure the fruits of your labor, then you must fit within the system. If you open a business, then you must open a bank account (unless it is all cash). If you work, you have to cash your paycheck.

I use by DD214 as an alternative source of identification in certain instances. I use by UDL. I rarely am asked for the SSN except for credit issues. Relax.:what:
 
Don, you seem to also mantain that Washington State keeps your SSN in the "barcode" of their licenses. I find this odd because at no time was my SSN ever asked for. How are they supposed to put the number on my license if i never gave it to them in the first place? And no a SSN is not required to recieve a license in washington state. Here is a link to the acceptable forms of ID when being issued a WA drivers license http://www.dol.wa.gov/ds/id.htm So, im not real sure where you are getting your information but, you might want to check your sources.

Of course maybe the DOL got my SSN through the chip that the luminati implanted in my colar bone or something right? :evil:
 
Hmmm.

First they register guns, and that doesn't work in stopping crime, so then they ban guns.

So now they're registering people...

Does that mean when that doesn't work they're going to ban people too? :D :uhoh: :barf:

Wes
 
yeager- I PMed you the statements from the DOL website. I also posted them to this thread, though I removed some of the irrelevant bits. I think you just don't remember giving them your SSN.

Lone--
Its a situation where each element does not, in and of itself, provide a good counter argument. But when you get them together, they provide a pretty compelling case. For instance, the fact that the government lets the SSN be used as ID is illegal (1973 privacy act, unless its been repealed). Hell, even states using the SSN on state income tax forms (never lived in a state that collected income tax, so this was new to me) is illegal! They have NO RIGHT to require you to use your SSN to identify yourself on those forms--- unless the 1993 law that caused this drivers license issue also gave them that right.

What it means is the end of the anonymous transaction. Now people do still take cash, but that is on its way out, and I assure you they don't take $5,000 worth of cash without seeing ID.

Want to buy a car and pay cash? You need a credit check. You also get the third degree about where you acquired the money. It was quite a surprise.

I don't have practical arguments against this that are really cut and dry-- that's part of the problem, all these laws are difficult to object to, but then you see the result of it (like the LA Cop who was selling dirt to tabloids and stalking his ex girlfriend using the Police Databases, or the fact that 9/11 operators just rifle thru the database when they get bored.) ... eventually you end up in a situation where the government and criminals are damaging people easily with this stuff.... and the government isnt' too keen on saying "our system is fallible, I guess it wasn't you who bought all that explosive, even though the person used your SSN".

7.62---

Dropping off the system is difficult as it is. When you need federal permission to do anything, it will be very hard. Getting a false set of ID is very hard as well. The fact that some people were able to do it for 9/11 is not a counter-argument-- its still extremely difficult for the average person to avoid surveliance.

Tell you what, try living your life a week without giving anyone ID. See if you can do it.

And there's no reason we need to identfy people-- these claimsn that "Society requires it" and "you can't have capitalism without it" are bogus. Just about every business is conducted anonymously or can be, and ones that can't be can establish their own free-market, more secure, and less prone to abuse forms of identification.

I'm not a christian, but this is the number of the beast. The government is numbering every one of its subjects, just like the Nazis did jews. It was registration databases of gay clubs that allowed them to kill all the gays in germany in one night, just about. Same thing with jewish organizations. Now we have not just the NRA and all those-- who let your support them anonymously, but CCW registrations and a national NICS database tracking every firearm purchased in the country.

And what does the NICS use to tell who you are? The SSN.
 
Well, if there's another guy named Lone in your town, and they aren't sure which you are, they'll probably ask it. I assume most people think its required and fill it in anyway. But gun nuts might be a lot that would be hesitant to do so.

I think, though-- and this is probably taking your side-- that they do generate an SSN from your drivers license, address, or something else in common with your name and attach it to your record of the firearms purchase even if you don't fill it in.

I don't believe that the NICS records are not kept and computerized. I just don't believe it. I know some think they are destroyed, but they were used in the sniper case and they are too much useful information for the FBI to just let it go-- they will find a way or do it illegally.
 
Well Don, after 2 days of discussion, I think we just found common ground, as I am totally convinced that NICS info is computerized and undoubtedly kept forever. The Beltway Sniper is a case in point.

See, i really am not a fascist.
 
Don, according to the information you sent me, the DOL didnt start collecting SSN's for drivers licenses until 2000. http://www.dol.wa.gov/ds/ssnfaq.htm Here is the relevent passage
However, the Legislature delayed compliance for the collection of noncommercial driver license SSNs to the federal deadline of Oct. 1, 2000.
Click to expand...
My last renewal was august (i waited an extra month because im lazy) of this year. I assure you that noone asked for my number then. It wasnt all that long ago. Previosly my most recent renewal was prior to oct '02. I dont know what the deal is but, it seems there is somethign odd going on.

Also of note is this passage
Further, state law prohibits displaying the SSN on a driver license or license document, and safeguards allow access only by those who are legally entitled to this information.
Click to expand...
Personally i dont believe them here. Its very easy to believe that if they have the number its in the barcode.

I agree with you guys about NICS. I guarantee that they can pull up your SSN when they run a check regardless of wether or not you give it to them. Technically you dont need to put a SSN on applications for a C&R (type 03 FFL) license. But, lately they have been returning them as incomplete if that part of the form was blank. Might as well tattoo it on your arm cause it is your "ID Number".
 
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