Airline Checked Bag - Tag goes INSIDE locked case?

[M2]

I have seen it happen both ways, with me since I use a larger lock box the tag has always been inside the lock box; but when my wife used a smaller lock box they put the car on the outside. The last time she flew with a weapon she had a TSA notice in her luggage stating her bag had been inspected.

I could not find any guidance on TSA's web site outside of their Traveling with Special Items page. There is nothing there on where the card should go.

But I did notice that in this story it went inside the lock box as well, so basically I think it is a crap shoot as to where they put it. But they should never, ever put it on the outside of the luggage!

A follow-up! I just found this...

Pursuant to FAA regulations, airlines are required to place notification of unloaded firearms inside checked luggage. Some airlines require that the identification tag be placed inside the locked carrying case, while other airlines place the identification tag inside the luggage. Officers should request that no such identification be displayed on the outside of any luggage containing a firearm, however, airlines may utilize external tags when long guns are transported in locked cases. (Source: Federal Law Enforcement Training Center)

So apparently it is up to the airline!

Cheers! M2

 

[rmodel65]

i flew yesterday the first time ever and checked my gun...

tag went inside my locked case... and i had a lock on the outside of my luggage which is something you can do only when carrying your gun....

 

[brboyer]

If you use a large hard-sided case (suitcase size) like a Pelican, just put the gun in along with your clothes and other stuff (no separate gun case) and lock it. Problem solved.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Get serious. There is no "citing" TSA, because even they say their rules are secret.

LOL. If TSA had rules that had to be followed by passengers they could hardly keep then secret could they? That's ridiculous.

So apparently it is up to the airline!

Exactly. That's why the cards are not TSA forms, they come from the airline.

The LAW requires that guns be declared to the airline and the card is simply proof of that.

The TSA is not required to, by law anyway, verify that the card is there.

 

[MrCleanOK]

I can't find a direct source for "TSA firearms declaration tags are visible on X-ray", but a little bit of thinkin' can figure this one out.

1. X-ray machines can see metal through more metal. Your metal gun case is not a big black mystery box when it goes through the X-ray machine.

2. In the post-9/11 era, you better believe that no checked bag in the US gets anywhere close to a plane without going through an X-ray machine. Some airports do it in the back, some airports do it right out front where you can see it.

3. All the people out there who have put their tag INSIDE the case, and recieved their luggage at their destination un-tampered with are proof that TSA can see the tag in the case. If you think TSA can't see the tag, but lets the firearm go right on through, then I encourage to you try checking a firearm without declaring it, and see how far your bag makes it.

 

[MrCleanOK]

Also, this:

Last month on a return flight, my bag was visually inspected. The TSA agent said the X-ray machine did not see the tag next to the gun, so they had to confirm visually.

Up until then, I did not realize the ink on the tag was special.

Works for me. Thanks for sharing that, Harry.

 

[acdodd]

The ink on the tag is visible on X-Ray. TSA can tell it's in there, and being in the case with the firearm guarantees the two don't become separated.

Metal in the ink makes it visible to xray so if they see a gun and a tag they know it's declared.

That is the silliest thing I have read in a long time.
The X-Ray won't even show the declaration form much less the ink on the form.
I worked on those X-Ray systems.

In the post-9/11 era, you better believe that no checked bag in the US gets anywhere close to a plane without going through an X-ray machine. Some airports do it in the back, some airports do it right out front where you can see it.

Unfortunately that isn't true.
A lot of small airports don't have the X-Ray equipment.
They have to do a physical inspection.
Things can and are missed.

 

[chuckusaret]

I'll repeat what I said, I fly often. Right, wrong or indifferent, I always do as they say. I put the TSA employees on the same level as the Wal Mart floor sweepers. I have had the very same TSA nerd assist with my check in on many occasions and the procedure/requirements have been different on each occasion. That is why I say: Right, wrong or indifferent, I always do as they say and have never have a problem on departure or arrival. I have even been complimented by the TSA on my Secure-It gun safes that I have securely mounted in two suitcases, one for the handgun and one for the ammo.

 

[swinokur]

The ink on the tag is visible on X-Ray. TSA can tell it's in there, and being in the case with the firearm guarantees the two don't become separated.

I'm calling Bravo Sierra on this info, unless you can provide a cite for it.

 

[swinokur]

I'll repeat what I said, I fly often. Right, wrong or indifferent, I always do as they say. I put the TSA employees on the same level as the Wal Mart floor sweepers. I have had the very same TSA nerd assist with my check in on many occasions and the procedure/requirements have been different on each occasion. That is why I say: Right, wrong or indifferent, I always do as they say and have never have a problem on departure or arrival. I have even been complimented by the TSA on my Secure-It gun safes that I have securely mounted in two suitcases, one for the handgun and one for the ammo.

Good post. I will say that some inspections do occur outside of the xray machines so if the card is inside the locked case, TSA won't see it. United always tells me to put the tag on top of my locked case.

 

[swinokur]

i flew yesterday the first time ever and checked my gun...

tag went inside my locked case... and i had a lock on the outside of my luggage which is something you can do only when carrying your gun....

You can use a TSA approved lock on the outside of your suitcase whether there is a handgun inside or not. I have found it's a waste of time since the TSA goobers are too lazy to use a key and just cut the lock off when they do an inspection. I now use a nylon wire tie. Same results, but cheaper.

TSA locks provide NO security so why waste the money.

 

[swinokur]

There is no uniformity in TSA procedures. If you go from city to city they will change the rules and swear they have the correct procedure.


Get serious. There is no "citing" TSA, because even they say their rules are secret.

It's best to go with the flow, it saves a lot of aggravation. Most TSA folks are nice people, just caught in the bureaucracy.

Maybe it's why Israel doesn't use government screeners, and they have never had an attack. Our government knew that when the TSA was formed, and chose to create another union full of Democrat voters.
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I'm no security expert, but if I put the tag (special ink or not) inside my METAL locked gun case, it won't show up. Period.
Maybe they should use lead tags. Or RF ID's.
How about this? Require every gun manufacturer to install an RF ID chip in every gun, so the TSA could track that gun everywhere.
I'm getting a headache.

There is no TSA reg on where to place the tag, so how can anyone post that it goes inside the lockled case because TSA can see it?

BRAVO SIERRA

 

[MrCleanOK]

ACDODD, have you worked specifically with the TSA tags, or just the X-ray machines? I'm just curious. And yes, I'm sure you're right about gaps in the X-ray curtain at small airports and such. But I would assume that the overwhelming majority of bags in the US do get X-rayed.

I have closely examined the declaration tags before, and the ink appeared to me to be a raised ink, not just "regular" ink. The X-ray machine wouldn't be able to see the paper, or what you have written on the tag, but I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to guess that an X-ray machine would be capable of detecting a special, metallic ink.

Now, I've done something crazy and written a letter to TSA asking for information about this. If they do ever get back to me, I'll post what they have to say.

 

[swinokur]

So it's not a fact TSA can see the lettering on the tags as claimed? It just appeared that way and it was then posted as a fact? gee..? big surprise.

Yup, that's what a little think'in will get you.

As I said,

BRAVO SIERRA

The things you can learn on Internet gun forums.....

 

[acdodd]

I worked on the explosive scanner.
I worked directly with the TSA screeners but not FOR them.
The images on the screen are not very good but they don't have to be.
If there is a gun or other metal objects in the bag that will show up very clearly.
Anything else is almost impossible to identify which is why they open the bag to look.
The scanners use a software program to tell if the item is a possible explosive device and that is all they are designed to do.
Anything else they find is incidental to their real purpose.
Guns were a common item and most of the time the TSA never gave them a second look.
All checked bags are either scanned or hand searched. NO exceptions.
I have watched the TSA people cut approved lock, use a hammer and pry bar to open bags and pick locks on hard sided suitcases.
If they want in they will get in.
Next time someone travels with a gun send me the tag and I'll X-Ray it and let you know.
I'm not worried about giving away any state secrets.
I'm sure the bad guys already have a tag.

 

[MrCleanOK]

Swinokur,
I remember reading somewhere that the ink on the tag is visible on X-ray, and that passed the smell test for me based on my personal experience and critical thinking. Since you seem to want to have a discussion about it, I did a couple of google searches and couldn't find the hard evidence to support what I believe is true.

I've asked TSA for some input on it which they may or may not provide, and when I have a little more free time I'll do some patent research to see if there is a patent on an X-ray visible ink. I don't have an axe to grind, and I'm not worried about my ego. I'm just trying to have an academic discussion about something interesting. If I'm right, I'd like to prove that with hard evidence. If I'm wrong, I'd also like to prove that with hard evidence. You are right to doubt my credentials, just as I am right to doubt yours. I don't take that personally. This is after all the nameless, faceless internet. If you wouldn't mind, take it easy on the "BRAVO SIERRAs" and this-is-the-most-outlandish-crap-I've-ever-heard tone. Actual constructive content would be a lot more effective at proving what you believe to be true.

acdodd,
Thanks for following this thread and posting good information. Hopefully someone reading this will have access to a firearms declaration tag and be able to send it to you for testing. That is a very generous offer.

 

[swinokur]

My objection is that is what is obviously not factual info and is clearly sheer conjecture or urban legend type of info is being presented as factual info. I don't think using Bravo Sierra is too strong when many folks believe everything they read on these forums. it's disingenuous IMO to present these opinions as facts.

These were presented as facts. perhaps if you had stated these clarifications initially i wouldn't have used the terminology I used. But in the absence of a cite, it's still Bravo Sierra IMO.

Let us know whatt you find out either way.

 

[gearchecker]

Thread timing is perfect for me. What about the AMMO ??

I'm flying Frontier and Northwest Air

For the ammo, Frontier reads:

One passenger is allowed to check up to 11 pounds of ammunition.
Any ammunition transported must be securely packed in the original manufacturer's packaging, fiber (such as cardboard), wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
Loaded ammunition clips and magazines must also be securely boxed.
The ammunition may be located in the same hard-sided locked case as the firearm, as long as it's properly packed as described.

Can my magazines be in a leather double magazine "holster"?
One airline says they, can be but must be placed in the "holster upside down so the primers are fully covered.

Do I take a box of ammo and pack the mags empty in the case?

Can anybody tell me how magazines are normally handled.
I'm a bit confused in how to transport the ammo.

 

[gearchecker]

Thread timing is perfect for me. What about the AMMO ??

As soon as I get back in 2 weeks I'll send my handgun checked baggage tag to you if you really want it.
PM me and I'll mail it to you.

 

[swinokur]

TSA and the airlines consider a loaded magazine placed into a mag holder so that the ammo is covered to meet the ammo storage criteria.. I flew 3 weeks ago and just put 2 50 round boxes of 45 into my checked bag.

This from TSA's web site:

You can't use firearm magazines/clips for packing ammunition unless they completely and securely enclose the ammunition (e.g., by securely covering the exposed portions of the magazine or by securely placing the magazine in a pouch, holder, holster or lanyard).

Loaded mags are ok as long as they comply with the above

 

[TexasRifleman]

'm a bit confused in how to transport the ammo.

You will see it different depending on the airline.

You often end up in a debate with the airline about whether or not you did it right. Takes time to deal with that.

In general they are much friendlier if you leave it in the box it came in rather than putting it in magazines.

 

[swinokur]

Taken directly from the TSA web site:

Traveling with Special Items

Firearms & Ammunition
Photo of a firearm improperly packaged
Photo of a firearm improperly packaged.

You may only transport firearms, ammunition and firearm parts in your checked baggage. Firearms, ammunition and firearm parts are prohibited from carry-on baggage.

There are certain limited exceptions for law enforcement officers who may fly armed by meeting the requirements of Title 49 CFR § 1544.219. Law enforcement officers should read our policies on traveling with guns.

The key regulatory requirements to transporting firearms, firearm parts or ammunition in checked baggage are:

* You must declare all firearms to the airline during the ticket counter check-in process.
* The firearm must be unloaded.
* The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.
* The container must be locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from access by anyone other than you. Cases that can be pulled open with little effort do not meet this criterion. The pictures provided here illustrate the difference between a properly packaged and an improperly packaged firearm.
* We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft.
* You must securely pack any ammunition in fiber (such as cardboard), wood or metal boxes or other packaging that is specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
* You can't use firearm magazines/clips for packing ammunition unless they completely and securely enclose the ammunition (e.g., by securely covering the exposed portions of the magazine or by securely placing the magazine in a pouch, holder, holster or lanyard).
* You may carry the ammunition in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as you pack it as described above.
* You can't bring black powder or percussion caps used with black-powder type firearms in either your carry-on or checked baggage.

Photo of a firearm properly packaged
Photo of a firearm properly packaged.

We and other authorities strictly enforce these regulations. Violations can result in criminal prosecution and civil penalties of up to $10,000 per violation.

Airlines may have their own additional requirements on the carriage of firearms and the amount of ammunition that you may have in your checked baggage. Therefore, travelers should also contact the airline regarding its firearm and ammunition carriage policies.

Also, please note that many other countries have different laws that address transportation and possession of firearms. If you are traveling internationally, please check with the authorities at your destination about their requirements.

This from United Airlines web site (as an example only)

Firearms
Federal regulations require that firearms in checked baggage or in their own shipping cases be unloaded and declared. Firearms are not allowed in carry-on bags. Firearms in checked baggage must be packed in a locked hard-sided bag or gun case. TSA locks are not approved for securing firearms. A maximum of 11 lbs. of small arms ammunition is allowed in checked luggage in the original manufacturer's box or securely packed in a fiber, wood or metal box to prevent movement of cartridges.

A magazine is a metal box and inserted cartridges first in a mag pouch prevents movement of the cartridges

TSA makes these regs, not the airlines. The airline sets weight requirements for ammo. This is why I travel with a copy of the TSA regs in my gun case.

 

[TexasRifleman]

TSA makes these regs, not the airlines. The airline sets weight requirements for ammo. This is why I travel with a copy of the TSA regs in my gun case.

The airline is free to be more restrictive than TSA if they want to, just be aware of that.

If the airline doesn't want it done a certain way, there isn't much to be done about it.

What can happen, and happens often, is you get a ticket agent who has NO idea about any of this so it can take what seems like forever to argue, get to another person, argue some more, and finally find someone that has a clue.

 

[swinokur]

Please provide a cite for this. The airlines seem defer to TSA on this

 

[TexasRifleman]

Please provide a cite for this.

Umm, you posted it.

From your post:

Airlines may have their own additional requirements on the carriage of firearms and the amount of ammunition that you may have in your checked baggage. Therefore, travelers should also contact the airline regarding its firearm and ammunition carriage policies.

The airlines are free to be more restrictive if they want to, that's just the way it is.

I've had this loaded magazine argument before, I wound up just putting the rounds back in the cardboard box they came in.

Sometimes it's not worth the time it takes to argue the matter. You want to have a debate on what a metal box is with a ticket agent, go ahead, but you might get someone who has NO idea and doesn't want to get in trouble, so they decide to stick to the factory box. Can't do much about it at that point.

All I am saying is that the airlines have the final word.

Sometimes it's better to have things easy than to be right