Airsoft - good training?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I got shot in the neck this week by an airsoft gun while training with my Guard unit. We were using pretty high quality airsoft guns. Tokyo Mauri M4s and AK47s. My neck shot bled and hurt like the dickens. We were using face shields, but the BB went right under it. The others in this thread are right that they hurt enough to make you not want to get hit again. But that really only applies to the higher quality Airsoft guns. The cheap spring loaded ones you get at Wal-Mart are garbage.

I highly advise using any life-like training you can. I've used paintballs before too, but Airsoft is preferable as the weapons are closer to the real thing.

RONSTAR, you seem to be thinking that if one cannot train exactly how real combat is, one should not even bother.

That is wrong. Any training is better than none. As far as room clearing, if getting plinked in the neck teaches you to remember to slice the pie, better that then a real bullet. It's all about mental memory and muscle memory. Condition yourself to do it the right way. Then when the real SHsTF, you have solid training to rely on when the noise and terror starts messing with your ability to think clearly. Of course airsoft isn't going to be like real combat. But you can learn real physical techniques and methods that work. That's always better than nothing.


ANd also as others have said, make sure to use safey gear, and do it someplace where you don't mind if the surroundings get dented or broken. And please make it real training. "Playing airsoft" can be fun, but it really has no training value. Be sure to concentrate on honing skills and not just making it a frag-fest.

 

[RONSTAR]

RONSTAR, you seem to be thinking that if one cannot train exactly how real combat is, one should not even bother.

Ahh I give up. I guess Im just misunderstood. From my experiences in combat I learned there is no training that could completeley prepare you for what you were going to do. I never said it was useless but that was made obvious in my previous posts. In all honesty I think I learned the most from the glass houses or at least thats what we called them. They consisted of a layout of engineer tape to resemble the floor layout of a building that way everyone could see what you were doing and could provide pointers on what you were doing wrong. It was the cheapest of the training excersises but it worked. This is the reason I generally dont like talking tactics on this forum. Everyone has got there own ideas. There are a high number of people that never have been in combat and they really just dont know what is going on and their are so many different tactics and sops out there that it is just kinda dumb to argue wich one is right and wich one works. I can speak for my self though. Im still alive they way I trained made it so.

Be sure to concentrate on honing skills and not just making it a frag-fest.

Great point.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

How do you guys train with the airsoft pistols indoors?

Here's something fun to do...

Get your neighbor's 10 year-old kid and give him an airsoft, then tell him to hide in your house with the instruction that he is to shoot you when he sees you.

What you get to do is go through your house and "slice the pie" until one of you gets capped.

 

[badbadtz560]

Something that might be of interest:

I played airsoft with a kwa g17 when in college

I even made up cheasy drills like setting up multiple coke cans at varying heights

When testing out guns to buy, I found that I hate glock grips but shoot them (g17 & g19) the best. By that I mean I shot them the most accurately and could repeat shots much faster.

This could have been due to it being a glock.. or just the fact that I really got used to its sights.

In the end I bought a sig.. I really hate glock grips.. they hurt when i shoot a lot.

I bought the new kwa p226 recently.. waiting for it to come in.. we'll see if it improves my actual shooting.

 

[DiN_BLiX]

That and know one is scared of being shot with a 6mm plastic pellet

.

Air soft, isnt. Or so says a cop buddie whos department uses it often for training. Ive never participated myself, but I used to play paintball pretty regular before the local field closed down. That tought me to stay low and slow, small squad commication and asymetrical tactics. Not really official training, but you need to take all the experience you can these days. I say go for the air soft if you have some place where they play decent scenerios and take it serious.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Lee, I remember the discussion from the notes you linked. That was a good Study Day.

RONSTAR said: That and know one is scared of being shot with a 6mm plastic pellet.

That's true.

But I've seen plenty of folks that were scared of me in our role playing exercises. And plenty of folks that were scared of me and my accomplices.

The value of force on force is not simulating what you can do live fire. I can clear a house live fire at my club.

What I can't do live fire is practice the social dynamics and interaction that takes place when a robbery begin to develop, unfold, interact with the criminal actors, and if need be apply deadly force.

I can do that with an airsoft gun, or simunitions.


The goal of using a simulated gun for training is not in the act of shooting it. If that's the goal of self-defense based force on force training, its falling way short. The goal is learning about yourself, and how to read an encounter as it develops and interact with it.


Just my .02 cents worth.

 

[MikeKeyW]

I use the Western Arms guns, upgrade to the metal slides, a tighter bbl and spring kit. My Wilson Combat duplicates my main CCW gun and fits my Atkin Avenger, Miami Special HS Rig and Milt Sparks IWB. I use in my house working from leather in house clearing and ensconced defender role play with my kids. Now they understand why I say lock your room and call police while keeping door covered from a defensible position of cover.
PS, they leave ding marks in drywall, not cool with wife.

 

[JMusic]

Airsofts have their place. I shoot a Glock 17 model every week. I do EU/ED drills out to 7 yards in my garage on a man size target. Seldom though, do I shoot two handed with it. There's another thread talking about how you practice. Airsofts are great for the every-day shooting part of the discussion. Buy you a propane adapter, they shoot harder and cheaper. Use green gas for simunitions, "I've killed birds and mice filled with propane!"

Who ever talked about experience has a point. You will always be better off with having the @#%& scared out of you and having to react. The skill to get your gun out quickly and on target only comes with practice. You can shoot an airsoft in more places than every thing else. I recommend them highly.m

Jim

 

[strambo]

Ronstar,

I certainly understand your point as I've done all sorts of training and been in 2 combat zones. No single training method is realistic, there are different trade offs for each. So, the best training (lets say for CQB) will include lecture on the realities of close combat and mindset. Close quarter H2H (simple strikes to put someone down who's in your face while wearing all your gear). Dry fire training "ready ups" and movement at individual, team and SQD level. Glass house dry fire (w/ stairs and halls). Live fire square range (close quarter shooting w/ turning and movement). Live fire shoot house. Live fire maneuver (SQD and PLT MOUT). And finally, well controlled and planned use of force on force (sim, airsoft or blanks).

The combination of all the above training will result in being as well prepared as possible. There will still be a gap between all that training and reality...the size of the gap depends on the quality of the above training and how serious the trainee took the whole process.

Lecture-helps w/ mindset
H2H-self explanitory, also helps w/ confidence
Dry fire-builds good habits and muscle memory
Glass house-dry fire maneuver
Square range -live fire close quarter marksmanship (CQM)
Shoot house-individual and team CQM w/ movement and confidence to shoot safely around your buddies
Maneuver Live Fire*-Leaders learn to control teams and squads, think about the battlefield in depth regarding fields of fire and when it is safe to move elements
Force on Force- Takes away danger of live fire and some of the realism, adds the realism of moving human targets and a more dynamic situation. Adds training on more of the scenario (pre-conflict, searching, securing, casevac etc.)

*Manuever live fire (multiple buildings for CQB) only applies to military, maybe SWAT. Civilians can skip this step.

In any case, our military is the best trained in the world as proven on the battlefield. While blanks and MILES may seem hokey and "not realistic" our enemies are getting out classed and hammered in small unit actions (to say nothing of at higher levels).

 

[Brian Williams]

But I've seen plenty of folks that were scared of me in our role playing exercises

I am 5'9" and weigh 220 and am not weak, Ken scared the bejeebers out of me the time I was in the training with him as a badguy.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Brian Williams said: I am 5'9" and weigh 220 and am not weak, Ken scared the bejeebers out of me the time I was in the training with him as a badguy.

Well, I've had a lot of practice at it.

Don't feel bad. When I went through my first role playing exercise with the fellas, I drove home shaking. I then played and re-played the scenario through my head the rest of the weekend. For about the first two year's worth of Study Groups I was always behind the curve, always getting taken advantage of, and merely based on my performance it seemed like I was never making progress in the interactions.

But I was learning. Then one day in there it just "clicked". I still made some bad decisions, and I ended up on the losing end of the violence. But I realized I saw it as it developed and unfolded. After another couple years I learned how to interact and actually manipulate people and the environment in real time, and I began seeing success.


Then it was time for the next stage of the learning process - time to play the criminal.


strambo, since we're unlikely to see the military come here to become enlightened on how to improve military tactics and training, its not really fair to talk about the value of these training aids for combat, is it?

You've illustrated the performance-based model progression fairly well in your post. Copied from the website Lee Lapin referenced earlier:

EVERY ENDEAVOR HAS RULES.

• TRADITIONAL WEAPONS TRAINING MODELS BEGIN WITH WEAPONS FAMILIARIZATION
• TRAINING THEN MOVES TO THE SQUARE RANGE WHERE ACCURACY AND HAND SKILLS ARE TAUGHT AS WELL AS MULTIPLE TARGET ENGAGMENT EXERCISES.
• SOME FORM OF SHOOT HOUSE EXERCISES IS INTRODUCED AS “ADVANCED” SKILLS.
• EVENTUALLY FOF (Force on Force) IS DEALT WITH AS THE “GRADUATE” LEVEL.

As we are fond of saying in our group, "Are you mastered by the rules, or a master of them?"

I once shared the view that training consisted of moving upwardly along a cirriculum progression. The Practitioner didn't get to work in a shoothouse until he mastered the square range. And the Practitioner didn't get to work in Role Playing/Force on Force scenarios until he mastered the shoothouse. In the perfomance based model:

INDIVIDUAL DRILLS ARE SET IN PLACE AND IN SOME FASHION, NOT ALWAYS CLEARLY, ARE COUPLED TOGETHER

THE PRACTITIONER IS TO TAKE ON FAITH THAT THE TECHNIQUES HE IS LEARNING HAS SOME RELATIONSHIP TO WHAT HE WILL NEED TO KNOW IF HE HAS NEED FOR THE SKILL

• There is often a debate over CHAPMAN V. ISOCELES.
• Which system is better?
• The real question is better for what?
• What effect does the confrontation strategy of a VCA have on these techniques?
• Does the “system” or “doctrine” account for what happens in a Real Time Reaction, an Anticipatory Reaction or an Assertive Reaction?

I've become convinced that the performance based model takes more time, produces more bad habits, and doesn't do the Practitioner any favors. I've seen the mastery based model work time and time again. And I believe in it.

IN A MASTERY BASED MODEL THE PRACTITIONER IS GIVEN A VIEW OF WHAT THE NATURE OF THE MATTER STUDIED IS LIKELY TO LOOK LIKE AND THEN HE IS GIVEN THE SPECIFIC SKILLS

THE MASTERY BASED MODEL ALLOWS THE PRACTITONER TO FOCUS ON THE SKILLS HE NEEDS AS THEY ARE INTRODUCED AND CONCEPTUALIZE THEIR ROLE AND IMPORTANCE

FOF IS INTRODUCED EARLY IN THE TRAINING EXPERIENCE

INITIAL ACTUAL PERFORMANCE IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS PROVIDING AN OVERALL VIEW AND THE BEGINNING OF UNDERSTANDING OF THE COLLAGE OF EXPERIENCES JUST FACED TO HELP FOCUS AND MOTIVATE THE PRACTITIONER IN SUBSEQUENT STUDIES.

THE DEBRIEF AND AFTER INCIDENT DISCUSSIONS SHOULD FOCUS ON PSYCHOLOGICAL, EMOTIONAL AND PHYSICAL EXPERIENCES WITH EMPHASIS ON HOW NATURAL THEY ARE AND HOW THE TRAINING WILL HELP AMELIORATE THEM AND TURN THEM TO USEFUL FORCES AT THE PRACTITONERS DISPOSAL.

The Practitioner will know he is on his way to mastery when he is able to get through FoF exercises with self-control and is comfortable with the problem.

Force on Force and Role Playing exercises are not designed to replicate real life problems so the Practitioner can produce the "right answer". What they are designed to do is mimic the emotional and pyschological responses we feel to anxiety and fear. They give us the opportunity see if we call on our skills in that state, and make good, effective decisions. They allow us to get a glimpse at predatory behavior in a safe environment, learn how to interact with it, and be an active participant for our own defense.


One year we had a psychologist come through the NTI event. He scoffed when we suggested our scenarios produced fear equal or greater to those of actual encounters. During his first exercise, where the Range Officer had to physically restrain him and tell him to breathe before he passed out, he ate a lot of crow.


I've had to tell a lot of people to breathe while doing this. FoF training has a value. But if you're using airsoft guns simply to replicate what you can do with real ones, you'll never realize it.

 

[Rossshady120]

oh yeah its real good training thats why i quit and i do ISPC now. anyone want to buy a really good SR-16 airsoft rifle?

 

[BullfrogKen]

Ross, that was helpful. Would you care to tell us how you think competitive IPSC matches compare to Force on Force training?


I'll pass on your airsoft gun. When we need to use long guns, we'll use a double barrel 12 gauge or an MP5 with the sims kit installed.

 

[strambo]

strambo, since we're unlikely to see the military come here to become enlightened on how to improve military tactics and training, its not really fair to talk about the value of these training aids for combat, is it?

What's the definition of combat? Facing 2 armed thugs in a back alley would be more stressful than the event where I got my CIB (Combat Infantryman Badge).

I'm not entirely sure what you meant by your statement. I think airsoft is a great training aid. As a matter of fact, I bought a KWA M226 today. It is a great replica of my Sig P226, high quality with metal frame and slide.

Any civilian can attend a defensive shooting course, then train at home dry fire and with airsoft. They can train live fire as well as FoF with airsoft and get just as high quality training as the military provided the training facilitators are good. There is no limitation of resources, just need the right info, the right people and some imagination.

The type of training which works for the military and LE is the same type that works for civilians. Airsoft is being used more and more in LE circles. It would be great for the military esp. CQB scenarios, but they won't switch just because we already spent all that money on MILES gear.

My post was more about how the training that works for the military can be applied to self defense training by civilians mostly in their own homes with good information resources, dry fire, live fire at the range and airsoft.

The only difference between LE/military training and civilian is the tactics should be optimized to each situation. It does a civilian no good to learn military or SWAT room clearing techniques...he won't have a team with him. It does a military member no good to learn how to barricade and ambush a home invader or react to a close surprise mugging, he will be hunting the enemy with a team, squad or platoon.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Ah, I see your point now.

Airsoft has sorta taken over the youth's paintball fields. And that kind of game is a far cry from military training.


But I saw this thread begin to move in the direction of comparing it to military or combat training. I think it might have a purpose there. But I'm just not going to concentrate on it too much right now to figure out what that might be.


For example - the way we use it is we set up the structures and terrain to reproduce dark back alleys. The Practitioner is sterilized of weapons, given safety gear, airsoft or sims guns, and is told the scenario.

"Go to your car in the parking deck." Along the way he encounters 2 or 3 criminal actors in the stairwell. They may approach him for his wallet, and the judge & RO watches to see how it playes out from there. Experiencing the interaction, not just success or failure, is the value gained of the early FoF exercises cirriculums.

 

[strambo]

For example - the way we use it is we set up the structures and terrain to reproduce dark back alleys. The Practitioner is sterilized of weapons, given safety gear, airsoft or sims guns, and is told the scenario.

That's exactly how it would be best used in the military, only the scenario ("mission") would be different. We spent way too much money on blanks and MILES to use it, but it would work well.

The fact that kids play games with something does not invalidate it for use in other arenas. There is a company "Systema" making M4's just for LE or military training. They are very realistic, rugged, and high quality. I handled one at the airsoft store the other day, it was a near perfect replica to my issue M4 in weight, balance and function. Only problem is it was over $1,000. Too much $$ for me or for a gamer, but an agency would save lots of $$ over simunition conversions and simunition ammo with the added safety factor that a live round could never be fired out of it, it's impossible. Once you buy the gun and a propane adapter, shooting it is nearly free (about 1c/shot).

Airsoft is a great training tool for: gun handling practice (esp. grip, stance), movement practice, marksmanship to 15 yds, safe "live fire" (sorta) room clearing in your own home (cut out cardboard silhouettes and put a T-shirt on them and set them up around your home). And of course FoF exercises.

You can do all of that w/out another person except FoF. The better GBB airsoft guns will shoot 3" groups at 10 yds or better (both of mine will do a little better than that). Plenty accurate for defensive handgun training or practice for IDPA/IPSC. There was a high level shooter from Japan who practiced w/ airsoft for 11 months and shot his real gun in the US for 1 month before the match.

A good GBB (gas blow back) airsoft pistol from a good company (Tokyo Maurie, KWA, KSC) will run $90-$175 with most in the ~$120 range. Get a propane adapter for ~$20 and you can use $3 propane bottles instead of $13 green gas. Western Arms are probably the best, they run about $235.