Alternatives to copper, brass and lead

[eflatminor]

This war will end as all wars do and when it does, I suspect demand for ammunition will decrease, which may affect prices downwards. However, given the ever increasing demand for these metals from countries undergoing their industrial revolutions (China, India, etc), I think prices will continue to rise. That got me thinking...

What are some viable alternatives that might be used to make "brass"? The main alternative to lead bullets is copper, which is more expensive. Could we see bullets made out of plastic? Carbon Fiber? Other more abundant and cheaper metals? What do you think?

 

[Shadowangel]

I've seen cases made of polymer that performed fine. Not reloadable though, I don't believe.

 

[Fish Miner]

Ceramic.... mixed with a polymer could make a great projectile. High temp and strong. or rocks. rocks could be good.

 

[Harve Curry]

Steel cases been around along time, cannot reload them though.
Bronze bullets also been around along time.
Plastics seem to work for shotgun shells, but they are metal reinforced and low pressure.

 

[brickeyee]

Steel cases been around along time, cannot reload them though.

You can it is just a lot more work.

 

[FLoppyTOE]

What about the "green" bullet? Tungsten nylon is it?

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Caseless would be the ultimate goal.

 

[MD_Willington]

Steel is reloadable... I have read about IIRC a Canadian company working on stainless reloadable cases, but I have lost the link.

Bronze.. well that is a copper alloy... Bronze is typically 88% copper and 12% tin OR 90% copper and 10% zinc...

 

[El Tejon]

eflatminor, have you read this month's American Rifleman yet?

 

[Bartkowski]

Didn't the "green" bullet actually break down into harmful materials?

And tungsten is very expensive, so that wouldn't help keep cost down.

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

rocks lol
although if you put a chunk of granite in a lathe and turned it down enough and then cast plastic around the outside so there is something to grab the rifling....probably would only work with very slow cartridges like 45acp

I think steel and nickel will be the way to go.

 

[PercyShelley]

Cases could easily be replaced with plastics or different metals; it's been done already.

It's the bullets I'm worried about. There aren't many metals that are denser than lead, and none of them are cheap.

 

[General Geoff]

copper washed or plated steel is about the cheapest you'll get. Can't use that for pistol ammo though because that makes it ZOMG ARMOUR PIERCING, and the resultant cartridges will eat the souls of innocent children while you sleep.

 

[esmith]

Didn't the "green" bullet actually break down into harmful materials?

And tungsten is very expensive, so that wouldn't help keep cost down.

Enviromentalists don't care if YOU have to pay more for what you want to do, they mostly just think radically without any rational thought.

 

[Bartkowski]

Enviromentalists don't care if YOU have to pay more for what you want to do, they mostly just think radically without any rational thought.

Ok, well the whole point of the thread is a low cost alternative to lead, brass, and copper. That is why I mentioned that it wouldn't keep cost down.

 

[esmith]

Ok, well the whole point of the thread is a low cost alternative to lead, brass, and copper. That is why I mentioned that it wouldn't keep cost down.

Well i think people should understand why it is expensive and why people are pushing for it to be an alternative.

 

[Bartkowski]

Well i think people should understand why it is expensive and why people are pushing for it to be an alternative.

Well your post didn't tell us why it is expensive. And the EPA pushed for it to be an alternative for the army because lead broke down and made it's way into the water. New findings suggest that tungsten does the same, only faster.

 

[esmith]

Where is this study or findings? I'd like to see it... And the EPA along with many enviromentalists pushed it because they were afraid of lead-water seepage, therefore they rushed a new material to be used that appearently is worse.

 

[Bartkowski]

I will find it later, but if you want you can google the army, EPA, and tungsten bullets. It shouldn't be hard but I have work.

And the EPA along with many enviromentalists pushed it because they were afraid of lead-water seepage, therefore they rushed a new material to be used that appearently is worse.

Are you questioning? Or are you just saying what I said after asking for the report?

 

[esmith]

I was trying to portray the fear that greenies have of materials ruining the Earth, therefore they try using alternatives that have unintended consequences such as higher prices and what you say, even worse harmful effects. Same thing as alternative fuel E85, subsidized farms were taken resulting in higher food costs.

 

[Werewolf]

Ceramic.... mixed with a polymer could make a great projectile.

That's a hell of an idea but I imagine they'd have to be coated with something, teflon maybe, or the ceramic would eat up a barrel pretty darn fast.

 

[brickeyee]

That's a hell of an idea but I imagine they'd have to be coated with something, teflon maybe, or the ceramic would eat up a barrel pretty darn fast.

It is going to take some real work.
Ceramic is not malleable enough to to engrave into rifling.

 

[feedthehogs]

The massive growth overseas will overtake itself.

In the rush for the almighty dollar, farm land is being plowed over, pollution is rampent and food is scarce as the fisheries are being farmed at rates that cannot be sustained.

Most of China's farm land is being watered with heavy metal laced pollution and pesticides are stuf we never even used. There is no restrictions and controls.

While it doesn't make it nice now, wait a few years when those countries turn into industrial waste lands.

Then prices will drop. In the mean time while our currency is in the toilet, melt down the coinage and cast away.

 

[Gifted]

Biggest problem with lead is current smelting methods are very polluting. We have like two or three total smelters in the country. It's still reasonably cheap though. The biggest costs are the petroleum based powder, and the brass and copper. The brass and copper are probably half the price.

Run a piezoelectric priming system in a plastic case made of the same stuff as the M1 abrams rounds. Save that the round is solid plastic so that the whole thing burns away when fired. A lead cored bullet would have a plastic jacket, something high temp and strong.

Can't be reloaded, but hey, at probably half the cost at least, it'd be less practical, and you could buy the cartridges and bullets to load to your own specs if you want to.

 

[Bezoar]

actually the caseless and plastic coated ones are dependent upon an even more environmentally unfriendly material. Crude Oil. Dont see the price of that ever going down, so why switch from something that will be there in usable supplies to somthing like oil that will definitely run out as well as cost more every month?