Am I of Good Moral Character?

[ArtP]

I want to ask your opinion about whether or not you think I qualify as “good moral character” in regards to obtaining a CCW in California. Fortunately, my county (Lake) issues them pretty freely. I really don’t like the idea of putting my past up for public scrutiny, but the only other way is to apply and see what happens. I don’t want a denial because any further attempts, even in another state, may ask if I’ve ever applied before and stating a denial may be frowned on.

I’m 42 and have lived in the county most of my life. I have never been charged with a misdemeanor or felony. I have had speeding tickets, the most recent is five years ago. I have been arrested once and had a restraining order against me. I have also had a couple interactions with police that amounted to nothing.

Restraining order issued against me in 2001. Upon learning my wife was having an affair with a friend up the street, I marched up to the guys house and had words, made threats and attempted to fight (nothing was ever proven/no weapons). I was issued a disturbing the peace citation and the “friend” up the street was successful in getting a weak restraining order which was only good for 6 months, as opposed to the customary three years. I believe the judge was simply covering his liability. The DA asked me to plead guilty to the disturbing the peace with probation and I suggested he convince twelve people to see it his way. The disturbance charge was dropped. The DA said, “I would have acted similar upon discovering an affair”.

In 2006 I was arrested for drunk in public on my own property after a telephone argument with my EX-wife (same woman). She is an ER nurse and friendly with the sheriff’s dept and made a phone call suggesting I was unruly. I was seen in my yard and arrested in my house. I was never charged with anything and released. To me, it was a display of force and sadly, it worked.

I spoke to the sheriff's clerk about requirements. Of course they will only vaguely generalize. She said they wanted three years of perfect behavior, not even a speeding ticket.

As you can see, I’m not exactly squeaky clean, but neither am I a dirtbag. So what do you think? I'm pretty hard to offend, so be honest.

 

[Claude Clay]

ua got the 3 years......but history also

if you don't try, you will just not know. i'd gamble the cost of the application process to find the answer.

good luck. though the Chief's attitude concerning carry plays a big part even for the squeeky clean in my area.

 

[metalman8600]

I would say you would not be of good moral character if you DIDN'T confront the "friend".

 

[wishin]

I think if you're not a felon in accordance with the law, you should qualify. Some will argue that having served your time under a felony crime is sufficient reason to permit weapons possession, however, under present law you're entitled to carry in most States with issue laws as long as you haven't been convicted of a felony, haven't been in a nut house within a prescribed time frame, or don't have a Lautenberg law ruling against you. California ???

 

[Dionysusigma]

You seem to be of better moral character than I.

 

[ArtP]

I think if you're not a felon in accordance with the law, you should qualify. Some will argue that having served your time under a felony crime is sufficient reason to permit weapons possession, however, under present law you're entitled to carry in most States with issue laws as long as you haven't been convicted of a felony, haven't been in a nut house within a prescribed time frame, or don't have a Lautenberg law ruling against you. California ???

In California it's at the sole discretion of the sheriff, it's a may issue state. The state offers guidelines that say applicant must show cause and be of good moral character. In my county the bar to show cause is pretty low. It's the good character that concerns me.

This isn't the same as buying and possessing a weapon. I have no issue buying and possessing.

 

[merlinfire]

It's hard to make that call about another person, sometimes even people you know well. Unless the sheriff knows you then your official record is all he has to go on. I'd say that will be all that matters. If you are a moral person, I hope it works out for you

 

[Carter]

Sadly "good moral character" is about as subjective as whether or not the rebel flag is racist (just used that as an example. And no I don't have one in my yard!).

I'd say you are a pretty decent person from what I've read. Screwed over by the law yes, but lots of people have. You said your wife was friendly with the Sheriffs office? That may present a problem. But I'd still apply and see what happens.

 

[Ala Dan]

I think you are OK, if the circumstances are as you say. With that said, just
be thankful is wasn't a harassment or domestic violence charge; for that most
likely would result in a denial~!

 

[ny32182]

Sounds like in California it is the sheriff's opinion that matters... of course THR isn't the sheriff so the whole exercise is academic.

If I were the sheriff and looking at the available information I'd be wondering about the following:

-An arrest for initiating a physical confrontation is evidence of a mindset that is typically not good for a CC'er. Your wife was the one who was married to you; did you physically confront her? To what extent is this a pattern of behavior?

-Why are you talking to a woman who cheated on you five years prior, and further, taking that conversation in a direction where the cops are called (again)?

 

[mustang_steve]

Morals vary widely from person to person. What some consider immoral to another could be normal, with a few exceptions.

That said, so long as you've not committed any Felonies, or have a violent or substance dependant past, you should be good. The restraining order may be a black mark, but if you can explain what happened calmly and throw a positive spin on it, then you should be good.

 

[ArtP]

Sounds like in California it is the sheriff's opinion that matters... of course THR isn't the sheriff so the whole exercise is academic.

If I were the sheriff and looking at the available information I'd be wondering about the following:

-An arrest for initiating a physical confrontation is evidence of a mindset that is typically not good for a CC'er. Your wife was the one who was married to you; did you physically confront her? To what extent is this a pattern of behavior?

-Why are you talking to a woman who cheated on you five years prior, and further, taking that conversation in a direction where the cops are called (again)?

Good questions. And thanks for being candid. Ultimately you're right about this survey being pointless. But I'm looking for reaction from someone who doesn't know me and how they will percieve the information. Personally, I think they'll deny it, but I it'll keep bugging me until I am denied.

Was talking to the ex about ongoing issues with our children, we didn't divorce until 2004.

And you're right abou the mindset of a CC'er. My only defense would be to remind them I owned weapons at the time of the incident and chose to leave them at home for the confrontation - whether or not I was a CCW holder would have had zero effect on the incident. If there were any violence directed at my wife you can bet I wouldn't be allowed to even own anything today.

 

[230therapy]

Why do you have to ask for your right? Oh, now I remember:

SCOTUS mistakenly ruled that the Federal Constitution is not the law of the land and only applies to Federal action.

California does not have the RKBA in their state constitution.

Why are you living in that state if you want gun rights?

 

[Bubba613]

You have better moral character than the three most recent presidents of the united states.

 

[mothermopar]

IMO, you're an ok dude.

 

[lions]

Restraining order, disturbing the peace, drunk in public... It might come down the the sheriff's mood on a particular day.
On the one hand, weak restraining order, disturbance and drunkenness charges dropped. On the other hand, it could be viewed as a dangerous pattern of behavior for a potential CCW holder.

It sounds like they may focus on the last 3 years which would be good for you. Honestly, I could see it going either way.

 

[ArtP]

California does not have the RKBA in their state constitution.

Why are you living in that state if you want gun rights?

We all have ties to our geographic location. Quite frankly I'm surprised you'd ask that question since it's common knowledge that people are commited to jobs, children & family. Ironically I think it would show bad moral character to move hundreds of miles from my minor child. Not to take all this out on you, but it's getting old hearing all the time how one should just pickup and move if they don't like the gun laws in their state.

The laws are what they are in my state. Coming here to learn how to comply and keep the rights I still have and share information with others is my only interest.

But my youngest did just graduate from high school and is moving in two months. I will finally have the opportunity to move.

 

[30mag]

I reckon most of us would agree that morals and laws aren't the same thing.
Even having a criminal history of sorts doesn't mean that you're an immoral person.
I believe cheating is immoral, but it's not illegal.
I think that speeding isn't immoral, but it's illegal.

The only thing a 'criminal history' will tell you is what laws that person has been convicted of (maybe even charged with) breaking. In some instances, this could tell you whether or not a person is immoral.

So, define 'good moral character'.
Your moral character sounds fine to me.

 

[oneounceload]

Not to take all this out on you, but it's getting old hearing all the time how one should just pickup and move if they don't like the gun laws in their state.

You're absolutely right - some folks have no lives except what they see in video games and from talk radio......there's more to life than this issue and your loyalty to your kid is more important

 

[mp510]

The incident with the ex-wive's lover makes me question your suitability. The problem is not (dropped) charges or a restraining order, but the nature of the actions that lead to the police being called out. The 2006 incident, where you got were intoxicated and again got heated doesn't help things- in fact, it almost looks like a pattern of every few years gioing off on somebody. Was alcohol involved the first time (if so, are you know or have you sought help from AA, etc....)? What steps did you take after the first incident to prevent a future reoccurrance? What did you do after the second incident? If you were using some sort of support group/ mechanism, is it still in place?

Are you in any positions of responsibility?

What is your general reputation in the community?

 

[ArtP]

The incident with the ex-wive's lover makes me question your suitability. The problem is not (dropped) charges or a restraining order, but the nature of the actions that lead to the police being called out. The 2006 incident, where you got were intoxicated and again got heated doesn't help things- in fact, it almost looks like a pattern of every few years gioing off on somebody. Was alcohol involved the first time (if so, are you know or have you sought help from AA, etc....)?

I'm sure you're not trying to test my anger management with your language about my wifes lover, but it sure feels like it.

I'm also not sure being caught once in 42 years, drunk, on my own private property makes me alcoholic.

Personally - and while accepting full responsibility - I don't think my actions with the "friend", or wife's lover, as you describe him, were that much different than the average response might be from any 33 year old male who is relatively capable of handling himself.

However, and there is no sarcasm here, I do appreciate your response. I am afraid your opinion is probably similar to what an interviewer might think if I were examined "on paper". That's unfortunate but reality.

 

[DFW1911]

Every time I apply for a new license (if I relocate) and / or a renewal, I go through the angst you're feeling! I wouldn't be surprised if the building nerves are part of the screening process to see who opts out voluntarily.

Here's the way I look at it: you've had some incidents. Many folks have. But are they enough to disqualify you from a CHL?

I think you should apply and be ready to answer questions about anger and alcohol use. You did seek out a confrontation. You have had the police called on you. However, if the DA saw fit to dismiss, that must be taken into consideration. An arrest or citation does not mean a conviction, something we often forget in this country.

Also, try and look at it through the eye's of the issuing authority: are these isolated incidents or patterns of behavior that are likely to repeat? If you understand where they're coming from, you are in a better position to help them understand where you're coming from and you're in a better able to anticipate and address questions before they come up.

Example: morals are almost entirely subjective. Get letters for school teachers, police officers, church members, saying you're of the highest moral character. Sure can't hurt.

Oh, and if you're turned down, appeal. Unless you've done something that flat out bans you from obtaining a CHL, keep fighting the good fight.

Good luck. I know it gets on the nerves. If there's anything to take solace in it may be these: you can buy via a FFL without problems. Maybe a good omen?

Hang in there.

Take care,
DFW1911

PS: Consider these sort of revisions in speaking / writing.

My only defense would be to remind them I owned weapons at the time of the incident and the thought never entered my mind to use one when I went to discuss the situation with my friend. whether or not I was a CCW holder would have had zero effect on the incident.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Lake Co is a pretty easy place to get a CCW in CA, so that's a plus. you have had no incidents within 3 years and have never been convicted in court.

however, having read your OP and your followup responses, and not knowing you (which is what you're looking for), i would have some concerns. you've been arrested 2 times (a citation is an arrest) for disorderly conduct related to anger, with the possible additional concern of alcohol use (Penal Code 647) at 5 year intervals...which would make you due again next year

more than likely, assuming they don't deny you out of hand, you'll be asked to address this seeming pattern. it doesn't present that you have an alcohol problem, but there are signs that you do have anger issues you might want to look into...my wife was having an affair with a friend up the street would cause him to be properly referred to as her lover, not her friend. that this should even bother you, in your responding post, raises concerns...also your minimizing of the incidents in your OP

 

[leadcounsel]

Mans vs. Gods laws

I've worked as an attorney for years, and as a prosecutor. I'd say that I generally dismiss making an opinion of people based on restraining orders (given out literally like candy to anyone wanting one) or arrests (based on circumstances you've described). At 42, you don't have any arrests or charges of moral turpitude (theft, graft, bribery, etc) and the only laws you seem to have alleged to have broken are arbitrary mans laws, and under the circumstances most people can understand why.

If you want my advice though move away from the problem and throw away contact information for the X. Cut her out of your life as she seems to be the center of your issues.

 

[mustang_steve]

People get mighty P.O.d when they discover their partner is with someone else....so I can't blame him for being a bit heated about the matter.

However, there is a point there I missed, and that's about keeping a cool head. During my last job interview, I was accused of being disturbingly patient (they actually put me through some kind of test that 98% of people crack in to see how I crack...I didn't even find the way or the nature of the stress intreview stressful at all), so that may skew the way I see things a bit.

I used to be a major hot-head in grade school and college....it took realizing that my hot head made it easier for me to be manipulated as well as ruined many opportunities I could have had, as well as simply wastes time and energy for me to chill out. Since then, if I get angry I deal with it in words...physical fighting is only used if one starts the actual fight with me...I do not throw the first blow, nor escalate the situation.

It was a hard road to get used to, after being so angry all those years, but it was the most worthwhile change in my life.