Am I wearing out my magazine spring?
- Thread starter MSgt B
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Amish_Bill
Member
Unless packing for airline travel or some other seriously non-standard reason, the only time I unload my mags is at the range's firing point.
As for unchambering at night and rechambering in the morning, why? Do you have small children that come in while you're snoring and play with your stuff?
As another poster alluded to, there is ONE commonality in ALL (non-mechanical failure) AD / ND incidents - The Gun Was Being Handled Out Of The Holster! Unless you have children and cannot store it where they cannot get to it, I see no valid reason to clear it every night.
As for unchambering at night and rechambering in the morning, why? Do you have small children that come in while you're snoring and play with your stuff?
As another poster alluded to, there is ONE commonality in ALL (non-mechanical failure) AD / ND incidents - The Gun Was Being Handled Out Of The Holster! Unless you have children and cannot store it where they cannot get to it, I see no valid reason to clear it every night.
James T Thomas
Member
springs and springs
Concurrence with JohnKsa; the double column magazines we had in Vietnam in 1968-69 would cause jams when loaded to the full twenty round capacity.
It was standard operating procedure to load them only to eighteen rounds.
Apparently, the last round caused too much spring force, and the second round fired would misfeed.
Springs are rated at unit force per unit displacement, that is pounds force per inch compression. Springs that have been left compressed for long periods of time do "fatigue" and then, while still "springy," deliver less force per inch than they initially did. So the design engineer specifies a spring that will deliver the design specified rating; a range, over the design lifetime of that particular spring.
The heat treatment of the spring steel is crucial to it's performance, and the quality control of springs, just like knife blade steel, is reliant on the uniformity of the heat treatment. So there are the specialty companies like the Wolf Co. that was mentioned.
If my life or the life of my loved ones might be reliant at some time on the performance of a magazine spring, I would invest in a quality spring or magazine -spring assembly, and even seek one that offered a certificate of quality with it.
I would not leave things to "chance;" what is the chance -statistic that the factory spring which has never faulted "so far" will not be reliable?
Concurrence with JohnKsa; the double column magazines we had in Vietnam in 1968-69 would cause jams when loaded to the full twenty round capacity.
It was standard operating procedure to load them only to eighteen rounds.
Apparently, the last round caused too much spring force, and the second round fired would misfeed.
Springs are rated at unit force per unit displacement, that is pounds force per inch compression. Springs that have been left compressed for long periods of time do "fatigue" and then, while still "springy," deliver less force per inch than they initially did. So the design engineer specifies a spring that will deliver the design specified rating; a range, over the design lifetime of that particular spring.
The heat treatment of the spring steel is crucial to it's performance, and the quality control of springs, just like knife blade steel, is reliant on the uniformity of the heat treatment. So there are the specialty companies like the Wolf Co. that was mentioned.
If my life or the life of my loved ones might be reliant at some time on the performance of a magazine spring, I would invest in a quality spring or magazine -spring assembly, and even seek one that offered a certificate of quality with it.
I would not leave things to "chance;" what is the chance -statistic that the factory spring which has never faulted "so far" will not be reliable?
mmike87
Member
Soybomb said:
The spring company says that you're wearing your springs out - BUT if you buy THEIR springs it won't be so bad!
I have magazines that have been loaded for the better part of the lives and they still work good as new. Springs are so inexpensive anyway, who cares? Leave em' loaded if you want, but shoot them all periodically and replace springs when needed.
walking arsenal
Member
Slightly off topic, but i have a question whose answer may or may not benefit more people than myself.
Regarding rechambering rounds. Is there any reason other than bullet setback, that you shouldnt repeatedly rechamber rounds?
Regarding rechambering rounds. Is there any reason other than bullet setback, that you shouldnt repeatedly rechamber rounds?
carebear
Member
walking arsenal said:
Some guns will ding the case or chew up the rim as rounds are cycled, that could have a cumulative effect.
Also, there's the small risk everytime you hand-eject a round that something could tweak (like with a chewed up rim under an extractor) and the primer could hit the ejector.
I don't live my life in fear of it but it is on the "possible" list.
Amish_Bill
Member
walking arsenal said:
Bullet setback is about the only reason for not rechambering the round. This is caliber and manufactured dependant though. Large caliber fat hollowpoints that are not crimped in will setback more than smaller caliber roundnose bullets that are crimped.
(OK, CareBear's popints are valid, but I'm more afraid of setback than rim damage or primer smackage)
atblis
Member
You better believe it
You better believe they are. The CZ75's extractor is (and others).
You better believe they are. The CZ75's extractor is (and others).
Fletchette
Member
I have thought about this for years. As an engineer, I have considered a lot of ridiculous details.
In theory, as long as you do not compress the spring beyond it's yield limit it should not degrade. In reality, it is more complex than that. If you have a compressed spring it will slowly lose it's resiliance due to thermal motion and migration of individual atoms within the alloy. This process can be accelerated by thermal cycling. However, it is really, really slow as the thermal differences a typical magazine sees is small (~100 deg F).
If a magazine is designed correctly (fully loaded is not right at the yield point) and the spring is made of a good quality alloy (very few microscopic cracks to propagate) and you do not subject your magazines to large thermal stresses (no dunking in liquid nitrogen!) then they should work well for decades.
Loading and unloading will damage the cartridges (bullet set back, rim deformation, even corrosion due to repeated exposure to body oils). The cycling of the spring may cause wear to the spring as it rubs the side of the magazine body. Lastly, you will likely start wearing the feed lips on the magazine (yes, soft copper can wear on steel).
I just leave mine loaded. I test them often (as I practice often). If I ever notice a problem I'll just buy another magazine or magazine spring.
In theory, as long as you do not compress the spring beyond it's yield limit it should not degrade. In reality, it is more complex than that. If you have a compressed spring it will slowly lose it's resiliance due to thermal motion and migration of individual atoms within the alloy. This process can be accelerated by thermal cycling. However, it is really, really slow as the thermal differences a typical magazine sees is small (~100 deg F).
If a magazine is designed correctly (fully loaded is not right at the yield point) and the spring is made of a good quality alloy (very few microscopic cracks to propagate) and you do not subject your magazines to large thermal stresses (no dunking in liquid nitrogen!) then they should work well for decades.
Loading and unloading will damage the cartridges (bullet set back, rim deformation, even corrosion due to repeated exposure to body oils). The cycling of the spring may cause wear to the spring as it rubs the side of the magazine body. Lastly, you will likely start wearing the feed lips on the magazine (yes, soft copper can wear on steel).
I just leave mine loaded. I test them often (as I practice often). If I ever notice a problem I'll just buy another magazine or magazine spring.
Fletchette
Member
botched edit 
Holy Crow!!
I thought this thread would be long gone and dead by now.
Thank you all for the help. The spring issue has been resolved to my satisfaction. (I won the argument )
I'm headed down to the Chickahominy range this weekend. I'm going to use up my JHPs and start over with a fresh box.
I'm sure my Sig will perform as flawlessly as it has every other time. (But that's another thread)
I thought this thread would be long gone and dead by now.
Thank you all for the help. The spring issue has been resolved to my satisfaction. (I won the argument
)I'm headed down to the Chickahominy range this weekend. I'm going to use up my JHPs and start over with a fresh box.
I'm sure my Sig will perform as flawlessly as it has every other time.
(But that's another thread)
As nearly as I can tell, some double-column magazine designs actually compress the springs beyond their design limit. Here's one interesting example that points in that direction.
I read a torture test in a magazine in which a large number of rounds were fired through a brand-new pistol using double-column magazines. There were two new magazines being used for the test. About a third of the way through the test the magazines began to fail to lock the slide back on empty and perhaps showed some issues feeding the last round or so.
The springs were replaced and the shooting continued, but with one change. The magazines were consistently underloaded by 2 rounds for the remainder of the test. They were still operating perfectly at the end of the test. Underloading by two rounds increased their functional life by AT LEAST a factor of two. In other words, in spite of being CYCLED twice as much they still operated fine--clearly reducing the depth of compression increased their life considerably. The only conclusion I can see from that sort of result is that the spring is being compressed past its design limits when the magazine is fully loaded.
Now, I do NOT believe that ALL double-column magazines share this failing, but some clearly do.
Given frequent testing and the low price of magazine springs, this is a very reasonable approach.
The only thing that concerns me is that a lot of people have swallowed the lie that springs absolutely will not weaken from being left compressed. In the ideal case, that may be true, but in practice, some magazine designs apparently put enough stress on the springs that they will weaken considerably from being left fully loaded.
If you plan to leave a double-column magazine loaded for a LONG time without testing it, underloading by a round or two is prudent. A better approach is to frequently test your equipment as Flechette does. This will help you to learn about the limitations of your equipment and enable you to detect issues and deal with them before they become problematic.
Amish_Bill
Member
It says the springs were replaced and the mags underloaded. No way to know if the resulting functionality is a result of underloading, replacement springs of better quality than the originals, or both. You can't change two variables at a time then only credit (or blame) only one of them.
Oh, yeah -- What kind of pistol & mags was the writeup based on?
Oh, yeah -- What kind of pistol & mags was the writeup based on?
As nearly as I recall, the pistol was a Glock, and both the original and the replacement springs were factory. I read the story some years ago and the only parts that were of particular interest to me had to do with the magazine spring life.
Again, it is WELL known in the spring piston airgun world, that leaving springs compressed (leaving the airgun cocked) will weaken the spring far more than cycling the spring (shooting it). And you can't blame spring quality--these springs are the heart of often very expensive airguns costing many hundreds of dollars. The spring quality is definitely very good. What most spring piston airguns have in common is that the springs are absolutely fully compressed to point of being coilbound--generally considered to be overcompressing a spring. This situation is also found in some double-column magazines and the practical effect is the same.
I don't know where the firearm world got the idea that leaving springs compressed was always a non-issue, but it's simply not true. I know what the engineers say about the "ideal case", but in practice, there are simply too many counterexamples to make it reasonable to believe that the "ideal case" is always practically applicable. For one thing, as with the spring piston airguns, you can't make the spring as strong as you want. In the airgun case, it has to be weak enough for the user to be able to cock the gun, and in the magazine case, it has to be weak enough that it can be loaded without heroic effort. The combination of a top limit on practical spring strength, and the attempt to squeeze out every last bit of capacity from a magazine results in overtaxing the springs in some designs.
If you use good quality springs and have a magazine design that doesn't overcompress the spring, then leaving magazines fully loaded indefinitely will have little effect. Good quality 1911 magazines are an excellent example of this and it is not uncommon to hear anecdotal evidence of such magazines being left loaded for decades with no ill effects. However, if the spring quality is poor, OR if the magazine design overcompresses the spring, the magazine springs WILL weaken from being left fully loaded.
Again, it is WELL known in the spring piston airgun world, that leaving springs compressed (leaving the airgun cocked) will weaken the spring far more than cycling the spring (shooting it). And you can't blame spring quality--these springs are the heart of often very expensive airguns costing many hundreds of dollars. The spring quality is definitely very good. What most spring piston airguns have in common is that the springs are absolutely fully compressed to point of being coilbound--generally considered to be overcompressing a spring. This situation is also found in some double-column magazines and the practical effect is the same.
I don't know where the firearm world got the idea that leaving springs compressed was always a non-issue, but it's simply not true. I know what the engineers say about the "ideal case", but in practice, there are simply too many counterexamples to make it reasonable to believe that the "ideal case" is always practically applicable. For one thing, as with the spring piston airguns, you can't make the spring as strong as you want. In the airgun case, it has to be weak enough for the user to be able to cock the gun, and in the magazine case, it has to be weak enough that it can be loaded without heroic effort. The combination of a top limit on practical spring strength, and the attempt to squeeze out every last bit of capacity from a magazine results in overtaxing the springs in some designs.
If you use good quality springs and have a magazine design that doesn't overcompress the spring, then leaving magazines fully loaded indefinitely will have little effect. Good quality 1911 magazines are an excellent example of this and it is not uncommon to hear anecdotal evidence of such magazines being left loaded for decades with no ill effects. However, if the spring quality is poor, OR if the magazine design overcompresses the spring, the magazine springs WILL weaken from being left fully loaded.
A Glock? Interesting that they would built the gun with springs that wouldn't malfunction eventhough cycling through tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of rounds, yet the magazines can sit a couple of months fully loaded without suffering spring damage.
Hey, instead of downloading your Glock magazines, why not just snap on a +2 mag bottom, but don't add the extra rounds?
Hey, instead of downloading your Glock magazines, why not just snap on a +2 mag bottom, but don't add the extra rounds?
Devonai
Member
Back in the day I became worried that my Beretta 92FS pre-ban 15-round magazine springs were wearing out, as they would strip rather easily from the mags compared to my Glock 30. First I replaced the mag springs with the springs from the new 10-rounders that came with the pistol, with no effect. Then I ordered a new-in-wrap 15-rounder and experienced the same results.
I could only conclude that the spring tension was normal. I reminded myself that I'd not experienced a single malfunction with the 92FS in (at the time) some 3000 rounds, so I let the issue go. Currently my Beretta has 7000+ trouble-free rounds through those same magazines.
I could only conclude that the spring tension was normal. I reminded myself that I'd not experienced a single malfunction with the 92FS in (at the time) some 3000 rounds, so I let the issue go. Currently my Beretta has 7000+ trouble-free rounds through those same magazines.
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