Am I wrong to be unhappy with MIM parts?

[Boomie]

I've always heard we are in a Golden Age of firearms now where accurate, reliable firearms are the norm and are more accessable then they have ever been (from a cost point). I certainly know my rifles, while not as pretty as older models, are much much more accurate. I assume these sort of things are due to the use of polymers, MIM, etc.

 

[flightsimmer]

I'm assuming that MIM means "Made in Mexico" or does it?

I do know what everyone is getting at though.

I liked the Dan Wesson .357 Magnums with removeable barrels (I'd like to find and buy a full complete set) but I don't like the way the new Smith & Wessons do it.

10mm, when you care enough to send the very best.

 

[huntsman]

None have failed on me and I don't expect MIM would. I'm confident they are fine. I just wonder if I'm alone in my aging man hope that some things would never change......Don

I’m comfortable living in the past and I don’t need to buy a new gun so no MIM for me either.

 

[OldCavSoldier]

I have purchased several S&W revolvers with the MIM parts and the trigger lock. All the revolvers have undergone VERY HEAVY use and I have had NO FAILURES of any kind. With the vast majority of S&W revolvers being made of "stainless" steel or other-than-steel alloys these days, I think there really is no accurate comparison, especially regarding "fit and finish."

Back in the day, S&W occasionally produced a blued gun that had issues, just as they occasionally produce a stainless gun with issues these days. I think most of the perceived "new guns suck" issues revolve around current QA/QC practices, combined with the fact that these days, S&W produces many more variants than they did 50 years ago.

As for price of current guns being much higher than in yesteryear, I propose that current guns actually are less expensive than guns 50 years ago...take a look at the ratio of the average salary or hourly wage in 1960 vs the cost of S&W guns, and then take a look at the ratio of salary and hourly wage in 2010 vs the cost of S&W guns. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the current ration is much better for the consumer.

Finally, and I promise to jump off my soapbox, the true measure of a gun is "does it function as intended" and "does it allow the shooter to place the bullets where he/she wants them to be." Yesteryear S&Ws did, and current S&Ws do.

Thanks, all, for your indulgence.

 

[Guillermo]

already back (allegedly...I have not seen any)

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/by-brand/dan-wesson/

 

[Guillermo]

I assume these sort of things are due to the use of polymers, MIM, etc.

if one were to accept the idea that newer guns are more accurate (I do not) the use of MIM, polymer etc are not the reason. With regards to revolvers, a tight gap properly lined up w the cylinder into a barrel with proper rifling is where accuracy comes from.

If properly seated and therefore straight, the crush fit barrels of today are just as accurate as the threaded barrels of yesteryear.

None of this has to do with MIM or polymers

 

[Boomie]

Quote:
I assume these sort of things are due to the use of polymers, MIM, etc.

if one were to accept the idea that newer guns are more accurate (I do not) the use of MIM, polymer etc are not the reason. With regards to revolvers, a tight gap properly lined up w the cylinder into a barrel with proper rifling is where accuracy comes from.

If properly seated and therefore straight, the crush fit barrels of today are just as accurate as the threaded barrels of yesteryear.

None of this has to do with MIM or polymers

I made two statments: 1) It's harder to get a lemon now and 2) Guns are cheaper now. The use of polymers and MIM and what-not are for point #2.

To be fair - most of my personal experience with this statment applies to rifles, not pistols.

 

[Sky]

Folks first off please let me say I'm not wanting to start a negative debate or anything. I know times change and so do manufacturing methods. It's just that having grown up in the days when my Smiths had beautiful color hardened triggers and hammers, and my Ruger double actions were made with triggers that didn't have hollowed out backs, I feel let down that the old ways are being left behind. I bought an SP101 this spring to replace one given up in a split. I never noticed at the shop that the triggers had changed. The revolver is a fine shooter, and I feel I could rely on it very well. But it was somehow just not "right" to me. I have debated on a new SP101 in .22, but you know if it too has the hollow trigger back too I'm going to pass. I have decided to stick with my older Single Sixes for entertainment. No MIM parts. I guess when Ruger came out years and years ago, cast parts were "just wrong" to the forged part Colt and Smith lovers too. Just my thoughts and personal preferences.
I guess this is similar to my loving wife's and my enthusiastic collecting bug for vintage sewing machines. Lots of cast iron, steel, nickel, beautiful machine work and graphics. No plastic, no computer chips and there are lots of neglected specimens to rescue and display. A 1934 Singer hand crank with beautiful deep black finish speaks to me as does a 1930's made Smith or Colt does. Don

Yes the MIM parted stuff feels .....not as solid...not as weighty....not as substantial.....not like you want it to..less quality..same for me.

Maybe they have figured out how to make MIM better now than just a few years ago??

Whatever, as long as they work and are accurate then I use what I can afford and have at hand.

I remember after using an M-14 an picking up my first AR I thought, "What kind of plastic Mattel POS are they wanting us to use now?? We change sometimes for the better but that does not mean we are required to forget what went before.

 

[Guillermo]

1) It's harder to get a lemon now and 2) Guns are cheaper now

I misunderstood.

MIM and polymers defiantly contribute to those facts.

 

[batmann]

All things in life change, MIM is just one of those changes. Smith, Ruger and a bunch more are using that technology to cut costs and at the same time give as good or better over all performance. MIM parts last as long, are more precise and don't require hand fitting.

 

[OldCavSoldier]

So would most people, but not I. Stainless alloys used in handguns are strong, but soft – which is why S&W stopped early on when they came out with the model 60 and went back to conventional hammers and triggers that were case hardened and then flash-chrome plated for a better cosmetic look. As I noted in another post, military services (where small arms see use in much more harsh environments then most personal handguns) have generally avoided going to stainless.

If I had a problem with corrosion I would have a “conventional” handgun electroless hard chrome plated – inside and out – which can also be done on non-ferrous alloys by the way – and have the advantages of high-carbon steel with rust resistance equal or superior to that of the stainless material usually used in firearms.



Why? I’ll crank up the ol’ bench grinder, and you send me one of your Diamondbacks…

The reason the military has not generally gone to stainless is because it is lots more difficult to remain un-seen in the dark if you have a non-coated stainless weapon, and the expense of getting all those weapons black-coated if they did get stainless.

I have several friends/former runnin' mates still in uniform in harm's way who carry black-coated stainless pieces that they procured themselves. (yes, they are allowed...no, they are not enlisted...no, they are not in your every-day regular line unit....)

 

[oldfool]

risky business to mess with Old Fuff, you might come home and find part of your trigger guard missing... !
but I may have found an kindred spirit in OCS there
(doncha' just love them old guys)

anyway... OF, using terminology like "soft" in reference to stainless steel is a tad too broad you know, a bit much like referring to mild steel as "mild"
but you knowed that

on the other hand, referring to SS as 'corrosion proof' is about as sensible as referring to a water 'resistant watch' as 'water proof'.. both of which drive me a little nuts

 

[Guillermo]

risky business to mess with Old Fuff, you might come home and find part of your trigger guard missing

That is THR gold right there!!!

both of which drive me a little nuts

That don't take a full tank of gas!!!

 

[oldfool]

That don't take a full tank of gas!!!

nope, just a little 90 proof, amigo!
I didn't think you were going to let these guys slide on by that "MIM is ok" just yet
(but we ain't give up on you yet, G)

PS
me, I am huntin' cap-n-ball guns, because I heard some guy on THR might trade a nice Diamondback for one... IF both were guaranteed no MIM

 

[Guillermo]

I heard some guy on THR might trade a nice Diamondback for one

Actually I have turned my attention to long arms.

Latest acquisitions are a couple of Winchesters.

A Model 63 (22lr) and a Model 12 (12 gauge)

Damn....them old guns is smooth!!!

 

[oldfool]

you ain't seen smooth in them old smoothbores, G, until you bust clays with a Savage 410 pumper, bud.. (no MIM in 'em, you know)

and never was a Winnie rimfire rifle for slick-n-smooth that could match a Browning BL22, slick, smooth, and crisp all at the same time... you just too used to them old worn out beat up Colts, what feel smooth on account of being shot too loose, you know

(but we sliding a tad off topic now, even for TGIF)

 

[Guillermo]

I grew up w a 63...amazing gun.

The 12 is slicker than greased goose squeeze on a teflon pan.

And no MIM....

(I said that so we can't be accused of thread hijack )

 

[oldfool]

as I too oft tell milady, G, " I wouldn't do it for just anybody, but seeing how it's YOU"

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=45989
go ahead... hurt yourself...

but I bet milady can out shoot it & you with her own old made-in-Japan (not even Belgium) Browning SA-22 autoloader, even though it's a takedown barrel.. uhhh, with a 20X scope on it.. 10 nickels or empty 410 shotshell brass ends at 50 yards offhand
The woman has hands "like a rock", even now

Loser is obliged to to send a hot link on a no-MIM S&W k-22 or Colt Diamondback 22 at half that price; refusal by default means you have to shoot no less than 500 rounds out of a S&W 617 w/ MIM... and beat MrB on score for the last 50 rounds offhand, 15 yards, DA, honor system scoring, shot timer by David E at your option for photo finish call

but if you can tie score, we will call it a draw, 'nolo contendre'
"beer & BBQ by Bert" after, win, lose, or draw

Pony up

 

[Guillermo]

I just bought a 63 that is almost that nice for 425 (25 shipping, 10 ffl) so 900+

No thanks

being as how I don't know anyone with a S&W 617 (MIM gun) I can't do that either.

This is not a bet I can take amigo.

But we should get together and shoot.

You bring your MIM stuff, I will bring my MIM-free stuff and we can settle this for the OP once and for all

 

[oldfool]

I can't take that bet either, you know, G
(I don't own no MIM anything, either)

So unless MrB is willing, I think we will have to both pass, but we ought someday do a shoot together, anyway. Next best thing to 'shooting buddies' and family range days is..
cyberspace friends who shoot responsibly.. be it 'MIM internet tech' or hammer forged friendships; forged in the fire of shared common interests is well forged, always was, new or old.

(and for all the rest, there is THR, with or without VISA)

Be well, and don't let that young un' of yourn sneak off with that old '53 k-22..
(just put a pretty ribbon on it, and put it under the tree with her name on it when she comes home for Christmas, hugs non-optional)

respects to all

 

[Guillermo]

Be well, and don't let that young un' of yourn sneak off with that old '53 k-22

She will get it sooner or later

 

[flightsimmer]

I just bought a 63 that is almost that nice for 425 (25 shipping, 10 ffl) so 900+

No thanks

being as how I don't know anyone with a S&W 617 (MIM gun) I can't do that either.

This is not a bet I can take amigo.

But we should get together and shoot.

You bring your MIM stuff, I will bring my MIM-free stuff and we can settle this for the OP once and for all

Ah yes! The S&W model 63, a fine hand gun.



10mm, when you care enough to send the very best.

 

[MrBorland]

I can't take that bet either, you know, G
(I don't own no MIM anything, either)

So unless MrB is willing, I think we will have to both pass, but we ought someday do a shoot together, anyway. Next best thing to 'shooting buddies' and family range days is..
cyberspace friends who shoot responsibly.. be it 'MIM internet tech' or hammer forged friendships; forged in the fire of shared common interests is well forged, always was, new or old.

Aw, nuts. Just finished shining up the ol' (er...new) MIM 617. My 5-screw K-22 never needs shining (it's deigned by the S&W Gods to be perfect in every way, of course ), so it's ready to go whenever The Call might come.

Be well everyone & happy shooting!

 

[Guillermo]

Well Mr. Boreland, when we get this set up we will surely put you on the guest list.

After the competition is over you might be kind enough to coach us on what we did wrong.

But no matter what, you are always welcome.