Am I wrong to be unhappy with MIM parts?

[Guillermo]

although this may, or may not be said of other posters

I resemble that remark

I'll let others pay more for less

this is the money shot

 

[Old Fuff]

It is not a sin to be offensive in a good cause...

 

[Loosedhorse]

People want custom hand fitted, forged, deep blued, etc, etc, but they want it all at MIM prices.

And there it is.

I'm sure that when Ford developed the assembly-line-produced, interchangeable-parts Model T, the companies making cars in craftsman fashion laughed at the low quality. And shortly went out of business. (I suspect that some have noticed that those beloved high-quality Colt DA revolvers aren't being made any more; is the reason for that greed, or reality?)

There are a few manufacturers still in existence that essentially still make hand-fitted cars. And we know the prices on those. But today, even most "luxury" car makers used that awful assembly-line process.

There are collectors that buy old Bugattis and Benzes because they are marvels--almost works of art. But most of us don't drive those.

 

[ATLDave]

Sorry if I offended anybody folks. All I was sharing was my sadness that some things don't stay the same, particularly, the way things I like are produced. I'll be more selective in any posts I make in the future. Note that I acknowledged MIM gave me no problems I know of. I simply shared that I was not happy with the way things on guns I like have changed. Don

I can only speak for myself, but I wasn't offended by your post (or anyone else's, for that matter, but I'm not easily offended). It's OK to have a preference, or to harbor doubts, especially when those are expressed in those terms. I don't have the manufacturing or metallurgy background to have a personal opinion about MIM. For those who have an opinion, I am curious as to the basis for it. (We could also have separate discussions about internal locks, or friction-fit this or that, or life in the closing days of the empire, but this thread was about MIM.)

 

[Old Fuff]

People want custom hand fitted, forged, deep blued, etc, etc, but they want it all at MIM prices.

Of course!! and the Old Fuff is at the head of the list. But he goes out and finds "custom hand fitted, forged, deep blued, etc, etc," and buys them for MIM prices.

Sometimes he buys them for less.

To each their own...

 

[LCPor9mm]

beware MIM is coming

People want custom hand fitted, forged, deep blued, etc, etc, but they want it all at MIM prices.

And there it is.

+1
Cost does not always equal value. 1911 no mim $2,000-$3,000. 1911 mim $500-$1,000. Good day at the range with 100 rounds through either one...Priceless!
To answer your question OP, NO you are not wrong to dislike mim. If you want to pay more for a gun that was machined rather than cast because you can tell the difference in build quality, appearance or longevity that is certainly your prerogative. Me, I just want it to work at a "reasonable" price. MIMs the word.

 

[gdesloge]

"MIMs the word"

Very clever!


gd



Mum's the word

Meaning: Keep quiet - say nothing.

Origin

'Mum's the word' has become a popular name for baby product shops and nursery services, but the 'mum' in this phrase isn't mother. Nor has 'mum' anything to do with Egyptian mummies, despite their prolonged taciturn disposition. That 'mummy' derives from 'mum' being the name of the bitumen used for embalming.

The 'mum' of 'mum's the word' is 'mmm' - the humming sound made with a closed mouth, indicating an unwillingness or inability to speak. The word is of long standing in the language and first appeared in print in William Langland's Middle English narrative poem Piers Plowman, circa 1376:

Thou mightest beter meten the myst on Malverne hulles
Then geten a mom of heore mouth til moneye weore schewed!

That loosely translates as 'You may as well try to measure the mist on the Malvern Hills as to try and get her to speak without first offering payment'.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/mums-the-word.html

 

[splithoof]

After owning numerous Smith's manufactured from the 1930's to a two year old 625, I see no issue with MIM parts. That 625 is one of the most accurate revolvers I have ever used, and after thousands of rounds of all grades of .45ACP including hot reloads, steel-cased imported ball, premium brass-cased USA fodder, and everything in between, it continues to shoot very well, to point of aim. Lockup is tight, stock trigger very smooth, timing is correct. It rarely gets cleaned, and spends lots of time in a great quality kydex holster that is slowly polishing the finish in some spots due to all the practice draws. I would have no problem buying another.

 

[BYJO4]

Almost everything changes over time due to cost or technology. Mim parts being used today hold up very well and I would only replace with a forged part if one broke. I doubt if most people would even know the difference unless someone pointed it out to them.

 

[bsms]

"Still, there is nobody that I have ever met that thinks that a, for example, "classic model 27" is 1/2 the gun of a model 27 from 45 years ago."

You just met one. 45 years ago was 66, and I didn't start buying guns until the late 70s. Still, my new 29 is finished better than the 28 I bought then, and the trigger is better and the lockup tighter. I don't own the 28 any more, but I'd bet they will be equals in reliability and the new gun is probably going to be better for endurance. And IIRC, S&W guns in the late 70s and early 80s were NOT getting high marks for quality!

Was a '66 Model 29 twice as good as my new one? No. Not for shooting. Not for reliability. Not for durability. Perhaps slightly better for trigger, but it would be close. Blueing? Probably much better then than now, so if the quality of bluing is what defines a good gun, then you're right. Otherwise...not a chance.

 

[olafhardtB]

ballistic snobbery

I love s&w j frames. The first one I got was a pinned barrelled M34 it came wiyh a glitch and was sent back to the factory twice. When it came back the second time It was a buttery smooth dream. This is the only pre-lock J that I have kept. I traded of all my other pinned barrels and I don't miss them. My newbies complete with lock please me more. I have noticed gun snobs moaning about plastic trigger gaurds and going estatic over horn.

 

[1911Tuner]

Again, (possibly without the sarcasm), how are the new revolvers inferior?

Go find an old long-action Smith & Wesson and pull the trigger. Understanding will fall upon you.

 

[oldfool]

old Fuff,
"But he goes out and finds "custom hand fitted, forged, deep blued, etc, etc," and buys them for MIM prices."


Me too, but that doesn't mean I am opposed to the notion to new guns, nor opposed to new technology (when it works). The used gun market is no big secret, but exclusively used-guns-only and the challenge of finding LNIB is not getting any easier or cheaper. Besides, some of that new fangled stuff actually works admirably well.

Truth be known, there are very few of us here who own nothing but the classic good old stuff, and I am pretty sure that includes quite a few in this thread who decry "MIM". Most of us do own at least a little of "brand Z" non-prestigious-name stuff that works. I own my fair share of that too. It's only the yesteryear longing for the glory days of Colt and S&W competing head to head to claim the 'finest revolver ever made' title that really heats up our peevish factor.

I say again you can still have that in new revolvers, if willing to pay the price, and some do. Mass produced, no, but has been already noted, that good old stuff never was 'mass produced' by today's definitions. Is there any revolver more admired than the Colt Python.. yet it is well acknowledged their lockwork was intricate, mayhap even a little 'delicate', and could only be done right by merit of highly skilled, experienced (expensive) hand fitting. Which is why Colt fell out of the revolver market; they could not, would not bear the cost burdens that go with.
(I am old enough to remember what those fine NIB Colts used to cost, too, relative to the price of their competition, they always were higher priced.. that being some part of the reason so many cops carried S&Ws, which is some part of the reason so many used S&W 'cop' guns still can be found)

You can still get that precision workmanship and 'select' materials, you just don't get it from Colt or S&W (absent custom smithing); you get it elsewhere by paying the price.

Cannot help but ponder the eternally recycled rumors that go around every few years, re: "Colt is going to make Pythons again, whoopee !" Every time that happens, what are the dominant comments ?
#1 - yeah, but is this... New Coke ??
#2 - yeah, but who will be able to afford it ??

Well, if you want it, Pony up the cash... or do without it
After all the #1 volume seller is the low price and dubious quality leader.
You can always buy MIM from them instead and complain about that.

(hmmm.... now I am wondering if my decades old T-revolvers have MIM in 'em.. ain't got a clue offhand, but they do work real well)

 

[Guillermo]

Reading this makes me realize why Olive Garden does so well.

In today's market you don't have to not suck.

You just have to not suck as bad as the immediate competition.

But for those of us that cook, we can't imagine eating that crap.

 

[PRM]

MIM that Failed

My Model 60-9 broke two of the MIM hammer blocks. Snapped at the weakest point. S&W used to answer this problem by mailing the customer new drop in hammer blocks. The only problem was they were also MIM. Although this is a part that should not bind or break ~ trust me they do, and yes they will affect the function. I did a search of the internet and found this to be a fairly common problem. Enough so, that about 10 months ago, I was told by S&W Customer Service this part is no longer MIM, but the old style stamped metal. They sent me one and I have had no further problems.

If you are a fan of MIM ~ go for it, I will take the old style dependability any day.

 

[Old Fuff]

Go find an old long-action Smith & Wesson and pull the trigger. Understanding will fall upon you.

Indeed! But first be sure to disassemble (or have a qualified gunsmith do it) and clean out all of the turned-to-varnish grease, carbon fouling, and dead spiders that may have taken up residence over the past 50 years or more. Then relubricate and assemble.

Also be aware that "back then," mainsprings were heavier because primers weren't as easy to set off. If you find the double-action pull to be heavy, simply remove the old spring, and replace it with a post-World War Two one. No other alternations are necessay, and you can always switch back to the original one.

 

[Old Fuff]

The used gun market is no big secret, but exclusively used-guns-only and the challenge of finding LNIB is not getting any easier or cheaper.

If you are a serious collector, like-new-in-box may be the only kind you'll buy, but most folks - at least on this forum - are looking for shooters and play-toys, and that includes me. If one is willing to go along with some minor cosmetic wear, and forget the box and accesories, the drop in price can be substantial and often is.

This is not to say I won't jump on a LNIB if the opportunity at the right price happens to come along, but it seldom happens these days.

I'm also willing to go for older I and K-frame's in less then popular or non-Magnum calibers, and a 5 or 6-inch barrel doesn't turn me off at all. N-frames are great, but for obvious reasons more expensive - unless lightning hits.

I prefer high-carbon/blued steel over stainless, and that cuts out most new guns right off the bat.

When you get down to the bottom line, the loss of my business - such as it is - doesn't cause any manufacturer's bottom line to twitch a bit. But my experience - which is considerable - tells me I'm going in the right direction for my needs. Others in different situations should do the same.

 

[Guillermo]

When you get down to the bottom line, the loss of my business - such as it is - doesn't cause any manufacturer's bottom line to twitch a bit

Interestingly enough, I am in a similar situation. While I have enough calibers in my life and eschew the obsolete cartridges, I opine that it would be nice to have the option.

If they made a decent product at a reasonable price, I would look at some new J frames (stainless is a very practical material for carry guns) for sure. (david e has convinced me that I need to try a "hammerless" J frame)

Maybe I would not buy new but if they made a decent product it would take some pressure off of the used market. Now days the discriminating revolver buyer has no choice. This has spiked prices.

 

[Old Fuff]

I would look at some new J frames (stainless is a very practical material for carry guns) for sure.

So would most people, but not I. Stainless alloys used in handguns are strong, but soft – which is why S&W stopped early on when they came out with the model 60 and went back to conventional hammers and triggers that were case hardened and then flash-chrome plated for a better cosmetic look. As I noted in another post, military services (where small arms see use in much more harsh environments then most personal handguns) have generally avoided going to stainless.

If I had a problem with corrosion I would have a “conventional” handgun electroless hard chrome plated – inside and out – which can also be done on non-ferrous alloys by the way – and have the advantages of high-carbon steel with rust resistance equal or superior to that of the stainless material usually used in firearms.

(david e has convinced me that I need to try a "hammerless" J frame)

Why? I’ll crank up the ol’ bench grinder, and you send me one of your Diamondbacks…

 

[Guillermo]

I’ll crank up the ol’ bench grinder, and you send me one of your Diamondbacks

Well I do have 5....hmmmm

Of course he is a proponent of the very high grip which even a bobbed hammer would preclude.

 

[Old Fuff]

Of course he is a proponent of the very high grip...

So am I. Goes back at least as far as Ed. McGivern.

... which even a bobbed hammer would preclude.

Not the way I do it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Also be aware that "back then," mainsprings were heavier because primers weren't as easy to set off.

Modern primers are more sensitive than the old ones, but part of that in the early .357 Magnums was likely due to the fact that the ammo makers used small rifle primers with the hellishly high pressured original loading.

 

[lono]

I have broken two MIM thumb safeties in about 500 rounds. This is on a Kimber Raptor 2 ss. They are currently sending me a third left side thumb safety. IMHO MIM is not worthy of being used on firearms.

 

[Jim Watson]

but part of that in the early .357 Magnums was likely due to the fact that the ammo makers used small rifle primers with the hellishly high pressured original loading.

My period references are gone, but it sticks in my head that some early .357 magnums used large pistol primers. I had a large primer .38 Special in my brass collection and the 1939 Stoegers lists one variant of .38-44 with large primers. Unfortunately, nobody then was smart enough to handload magnums and they did not catalog components for it at the time.

As recently as the 1960s, Federal recommended their small rifle primer for .357 magnum... because they did not then make a magnum pistol primer. I shot a bunch in 9mm during the Early Obama Primer Panic and they did just fine.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

I always enjoy and learn from threads where some of THR's experienced members have at it, such as this one.

But one small item caught my eye: oldfool, did you say that Dan Wesson revolvers were coming back?