Ammo For A Full-auto Thompson

[lwaldron]

I have an income. I have no children, therefore I can indulge my hobbies.
I won't live in CA forever. When I move to a free state, I'd consider becoming suitably licensed to buy a Class III weapon. Since I'd already have a semi-auto battle rifle, I'd think I'd want a full-auto weapon in a sub-caliber.
The Thompson sub-machine gun seems the way to go. But then the question of ammo comes up.
What kind of ammo does a Thompson prefer? Does it need FMJ to cycle properly? Or will it take a hollow-point, or maybe a "naked" lead bullet?
Think what a great home-defense weapon that would be. A goblin confronted with a Thompson might give up without a fight. If not, he'd ("she'd" too, sorry ladies) be sporting a lot of large-bore holes.
But, what would the proper ammo be? Where would I buy quantity at a discount?

 

[critter]

FMJ ball ammo.

Try ammoman, natchez, midway, cheaper than dirt (there are many more who sell in quantity.

Good luck-sounds like -- a blast!!!

 

[Chipperman]

Hurry up. Thompsons are climbing fast, especially the 1921/28 originals.

 

[Art Eatman]

They're set up to function with 230-grain hardball. I've run a few stick magazines through one, but never messed around enough to try other ammo...

Fun critters. Easy to control; easy to hit what you want, inside of a hundred yards.

Art

 

[natedog]

Thompsons are a lot of fun- more modern SMGs like MP5s are more practical, but the Thompson is still 10x cooler. Can't say anything about the ammo, though. I suppose the 230 FMJ would be appropriate. I did have one malfunction with a Thompson while shooting it- failure fire. Cycled the (really heavy) bolt, and let rip.

 

[boofus]

The gun range here has an original Colt WW2 Thompson they rent out. They make you use Wolf .45acp ammo in it. As far as I know it still runs like clockwork.

 

[ACP230]

I've shot 12-15 subguns. Ball ammo was best for all of them.

 

[HKrazy]

Think what a great home-defense weapon that would be.

Never, except as a last resort, use a machine gun or other NFA weapon for self defense.

On top of having an expensive weapon confiscated and possibly never returned, the DA may hold it against you.

Here is an interesting article by Massad Ayoob on the subject: The Gary Fadden incident

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

A very scary story- just using an "assualt weapon" is enough for an otherwise innocent man to be branded as a criminal.

 

[Monkeyleg]

I owned, but stupidly sold, a 1986 Auto Ordnance Thompson 1928.

It was very tight from the outset, and prone to jams. As others have mentioned, 230 gr ball was the way to go.

Even using cheap ammo, the cost of a range session can really be pricey. I took two of my clients shooting over their lunch hours, and it ran about $250. One pull of the trigger and $12 is gone in a matter of seconds.

Money well-spent, though, judging from the smiles on the guys' faces.

As for using it as a defense weapon, some think Ayoob is paranoid, some not. But I did have a criminal defense attorney once tell me there would be no way he'd ever take my case if I used a subgun in a defensive shooting. And I don't think that attorney even knew who Ayoob is.

 

[wally]

I can verify 230gr ball works best. Mine does also does well with hard cast lead RN realoads (I use 6.6gr Unique, the smoke form unique and lead bullet lube greatly adds to the effect )

I've also burned thru a lot of Wolf lately as I've been finding it hard to find time to reload and at my friends ranch where we shoot it, I lose probably 90% of the brass in the weeds.

Even with Wolf at ~$0.12 per shot by the case, you are having fun at $1.20/second full auto Losing the brass makes my reloads cost about the same as Wolf.

--wally.

 

[pete f]

ayoob like to raise conditions that occured once as common place tatics inthe courtroom, If I read his last bio sheet correctly, he make the majority of his living as a expert witness for whom ever hires him. ie, prosecution or defense. Yeah some of the stuff happens, but usually it is a case where the prosecution has to file something from political pressure.

But then there are a few i trust who call him a straight shooter, so I guess you have to weigh both sides. Gabe suarez at WT thinks he is a stand up, so you gotta take it with a grain of salt.

But back on thread, if you got is a subgun, a good lawyer should get that part dismissed if the guy you pop five or six times is a five or six time felon, however, neighbor kid doing his first job, you are up that sewage filled estuary without adequate means of propulsion and flotation.

and only use ball in the thompson, all they like. and some m1 thompsons do not like 200 grain ball, only the 230 mc

 

[lwaldron]

Guano

HKrazy--

I read the story your link pointed to. All I can say is, "Holy guano, Batman".
It made me think of another story I've read, but can't remember the source. An older guy hears bad guys doing bad things at a (gun?) store next door, and he comes outside armed with a (legally-owned) full-auto weapon, and handles the situation. Was it in a seaside location? I seem to remember the bad guys were motorcycle enthusiasts.
I know that seems vague, but maybe someone on this board can recall the story.
I like to think just pointing a weapon is enough to deter a goblin, but, as the story you've linked shows, there can be times when that's not enough.
Yeah, and I'd sure hate having the cops confiscate ANY weapon I own. They're known to be slow & reticent in giving them back, and sometimes they play with them while they have them, and don't clean them, or use them in a fashion sure to damage.

 

[Jim K]

I have used a lot of that Hungarian "Lake City" .45 in a TSMG and it works fine. I have also used round nose lead bullet reloads, also with no problems.

Actually, based on my experiences and that of others, I would say the TSMGs (21/28 and the M1/M1A1) are not at all picky about ammo. Any reasonable load with a conventionally shaped bullet seems to work OK. I would NOT use +P though. It might be OK, but with TSMGs at the price they are and no more to be had, it is just stupid to take a chance on a case blowout damaging a receiver.

Jim

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Jonathan Arthur Ciener in Coco Beach manufactures a .22LR conversion for the Thompson subgun. Might be worth looking into. I have one of his conversions for my M16 and it saves a ton of money.

 

[MrMurphy]

The Thompson is/was a primarily military weapon (designed for WW1) and is supposed to be fed FMJ.

 

[ACP230]

The gun store incident mentioned was also covered by Mas Ayoob.
It happened to a guy in Florida. I believe his name was Harry Beckwith.
He took several guns with him when he heard the break-in in progress. One was an M16, one was a shotgun, and I can't remember what the third one was.
Quite a story.
I may have visited the gun store in question when I lived in Florida for six months in 1978-'79.
I was unaware of the gun fight there at the time.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Care and feeding of an SMG

The original specs for Thompson Submachine Gun ammo was the Government .45 Automatic Colt cartridge. The Government manuals specified, "Pistol Ball, M1911." The standard load was a 230 gr. FMJ round nose bullet at about 830 fps from the 1911 pistol.

I've fired a short ton of 225 to 230 lead roundnose bullets over 6.3 to 6.5 of Unique, through a Savage made M1928A1, a West Hurley M1928, and an old M1A1. In recent years, I've gone to using 5.4 gr of W 231 powder. For cleaner shooting, though, the FMJRN over 5.6 of 231 works best. The lead bullets work best if cast fairly hard. The bulk pack swaged lead bullets are pretty soft, and they leave a lot of residue in a Cutts Compensator.

I've fired a few old JHP loads through my '28, but there's absolutely no reason to do so, other than to dispose of old ammo. The efficiency of the SMG for antipersonnel use has to do with volume of fire and the added ease of making hits with the shoulder stock. There is also a small gain in velocity with the longer barrel. I would be hesitant to count on the gun feeding any particular brand of JHP, without extensive testing. Since these guns are used pretty exclusively for sport shooting, there's no benefit in using the more expensive ammo.

And I'll have to add my agreement that it would not be a good idea to use your TSMG for any sort of self defense. In civilian life - - and I here include civil law enforcement - - I see no reason to use a, what? $10,000? smg in a defensive role that would actually better be filled with a $300 shotgun or a carbine. The only scenarios I can conjure up in which an SMG would be the weapon of choice - -again, for a civilian - - are so far-fetched as to be ridiculous. The downside of having a very valuable full auto weapon tied up in the aftermath of even the best "good shoot" are obvious, even if one could rely on regaining custody after one to three years of legal wrangling.

Best of luck - -
Johnny

 

[DorGunR]

Art Eatman Posted: They're set up to function with 230-grain hardball. I've run a few stick magazines through one, but never messed around enough to try other ammo...

I had a Thompson in Nam (yeah, I know it was illegal) but the only ammo that I ever fired in it besides 230-grain hardball was tracer, which still looks like hardball.

 

[SMLE]

There have actually been a couple of full auto self defence shootings here in NM. The cops/DA made nothing more of them that any other as both were very cut and dried.

Thompsons were set up to run with MILITARY M1911 ball ammo. Current US commercial .45 ball is downloaded somewhat from the full mil-spec. If you shoot some GI ball alongside some Win. white box, you can really feel the differance.

The WWII steel cased .45 ammo is great in Thompsons, but will rip the extractor right out of a 1911. AIM had the steel case stuff a while back for a good price if anybody is interested.

 

[PMDW]

He took several guns with him when he heard the break-in in progress. One was an M16, one was a shotgun, and I can't remember what the third one was.

S&W 76

 

[El Rojo]

Think what a great home-defense weapon that would be. A goblin confronted with a Thompson might give up without a fight. If not, he'd ("she'd" too, sorry ladies) be sporting a lot of large-bore holes.

This to immediately got my attention. First I don't think a criminal cares what kind of gun you have. A gun is a gun. Either they are going to be scared to death and crap or they are going to be stupid and try you. If I were robbing you house I might say, "Wow is that a full-auto Thompson? Man you mean business, I better relax as just one .45 ACP round going by me would jellify my insides, but 10 or 20 might make me spontaneously combust! I give." Or I am going to just shoot you first before I have a chance to figure out I get a full-auto Thompson out of my murdering spree. Either way, no one cares what kind of gun you have. All long guns pointed at you look pretty sinister.

And I agree, why take a chance of losing a $10,000 sub-machine gun in a self-defense shooting when you can lose a $300 shotgun and the bad guy would be just as dead? Protect your investments. Buy a safe to hold your expensive guns in, buy a cheap gun to protect your safe, and get a lawyer to protect them all.

 

[PMDW]

And I agree, why take a chance of losing a $10,000 sub-machine gun in a self-defense shooting when you can lose a $300 shotgun and the bad guy would be just as dead?

It's important to look cool when striking down intruders?