and post what you think: http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/wyly_4gw.htm
Last edited by a moderator:
An ex-marine on 4th generation warfare
- Thread starter NMshooter
- Start date
- Status
Interesting, and applicable to those of us in other services as well.
Could you explain the "generations of war" thing? Specifically, they mention what the fourth generation is, but not the others, and it seems to be somewhat applicable to completely understanding the document.
Could you explain the "generations of war" thing? Specifically, they mention what the fourth generation is, but not the others, and it seems to be somewhat applicable to completely understanding the document.
Can'thavenuthingood
Member
We are sworn to defend the Constitution.
The problem would lie in any successful attempts to change the Constitution and maintain the allegiance of the DOD to defend the document.
The Patriot Act comes to mind. In the wrong hands it means something other than intended and its authority is legally abused.
If the Electorate College is removed and a popular vote is installed then our government becomes a Democracy in the sense of a majority rules, whoever has the most popular votes wins. The population centers are big cities and mostly liberal types wanting more of my money.
I'm in California and the big cities rule the state policies.
They could then change the Constitution even further to the left and have the backing of the DOD since they are sworn to defend the Constitution.
Citizens are not watching the henhouse and the potlickers are having a field day. Most of them know they can lie thru their teeth and still get re-elected if they promise enough to the voters.
The Colonel is right, education is where it's at and application of that education in the form of good citizenship. The term "good citizenship" means to be watchful of those elected and participate in this society as a contributor to the nation rather than a taker.
Accountability has taken a backseat. There are few consequences to any action unless it's against the state.
Vick
The problem would lie in any successful attempts to change the Constitution and maintain the allegiance of the DOD to defend the document.
The Patriot Act comes to mind. In the wrong hands it means something other than intended and its authority is legally abused.
If the Electorate College is removed and a popular vote is installed then our government becomes a Democracy in the sense of a majority rules, whoever has the most popular votes wins. The population centers are big cities and mostly liberal types wanting more of my money.
I'm in California and the big cities rule the state policies.
They could then change the Constitution even further to the left and have the backing of the DOD since they are sworn to defend the Constitution.
Citizens are not watching the henhouse and the potlickers are having a field day. Most of them know they can lie thru their teeth and still get re-elected if they promise enough to the voters.
The Colonel is right, education is where it's at and application of that education in the form of good citizenship. The term "good citizenship" means to be watchful of those elected and participate in this society as a contributor to the nation rather than a taker.
Accountability has taken a backseat. There are few consequences to any action unless it's against the state.
Vick
jojo
Member
"Accountability has taken a backseat. There are few consequences to any action unless it's against the state.
Vick"
That statement sure hit the nail on the head!
jojo
Vick"
That statement sure hit the nail on the head!
jojo
I am glad that some were willing to read that. I felt it was important.
Gifted, if you have several hours I would recommend studying that website (d-n-i.net), there are several essays that describe first, second, and third generation warfare. Fourth generation warfare, as far as I can tell, is still being defined, but there are some good essays on that topic.
Many thanks to Ktulu, who started me off on this path.
Gifted, if you have several hours I would recommend studying that website (d-n-i.net), there are several essays that describe first, second, and third generation warfare. Fourth generation warfare, as far as I can tell, is still being defined, but there are some good essays on that topic.
Many thanks to Ktulu, who started me off on this path.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
That essay oughta be required reading for a whole bunch of folks. Not just the military, but all in law enforcement and in the court systems.
Mr. & Mrs. Joe Sixpack, as well...
Art
Mr. & Mrs. Joe Sixpack, as well...
Art
Can'thavenuthingood
Member
The military is the power to achieve goals.
It has no authority until directed by elected officials.
The President uses the military power to achieve goals if diplomacy has failed.
This is the Constitutional powers at work. The military is a tool as is the State Department to achieve goals of the United States.
Allegiance is to the Constitution rather than a person or party.
The military shouldn't be involved in politics when it comes to the world stage. A General ought not be on the 6 o'clock news complaining about his or her boss. He or she ought not be second guessing the elected leadership until it becomes clear the orders given are unConstitutional as in unlawful.
I think that's what I wanted to say.
Vick
It has no authority until directed by elected officials.
The President uses the military power to achieve goals if diplomacy has failed.
This is the Constitutional powers at work. The military is a tool as is the State Department to achieve goals of the United States.
Allegiance is to the Constitution rather than a person or party.
The military shouldn't be involved in politics when it comes to the world stage. A General ought not be on the 6 o'clock news complaining about his or her boss. He or she ought not be second guessing the elected leadership until it becomes clear the orders given are unConstitutional as in unlawful.
I think that's what I wanted to say.
Vick
Preacherman
Member
Very interesting indeed! Thanks for posting this.
one-shot-one
Member
McCarthy
I'm not military or ex-military so the thing that jumped out for me was the referance to Joe McCarthy and "witchhunting".
from my limited view of things (and hindsite being 20/20) it seems to me
McCarthy was right (mostly).
but I guess that is for another thread.
I'm not military or ex-military so the thing that jumped out for me was the referance to Joe McCarthy and "witchhunting".
from my limited view of things (and hindsite being 20/20) it seems to me
McCarthy was right (mostly).
but I guess that is for another thread.
Any society is made up of individual people, and is no stronger than those who uphold it. The fewer people willing to keep things running, the worse things get. It takes a lot of people working together to keep our society running, not just a few folks here and there wearing uniforms, but many others, and they need to be on the same side.
What seperates Americans from other peoples, more than anything else, is our willingness to work together. If we lose that, there will be nothing left but squabbling tribes, all fighting each other.
Civics used to be a mandatory subject in public schools.
Please pass this on to others who might gain some benefit.
Thank you.
What seperates Americans from other peoples, more than anything else, is our willingness to work together. If we lose that, there will be nothing left but squabbling tribes, all fighting each other.
Civics used to be a mandatory subject in public schools.
Please pass this on to others who might gain some benefit.
Thank you.
Michigander
Member
(emphasis added)
Very interesting. Very interesting indeed.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
nmshooter,
COL Mike Wyly co-authored the seminal article on the concept of 4th Generation Warfare back in 1989. You can find it here: http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/4th_gen_war_gazette.htm . I have thought the concept was pretty much on target since I read that article when it first appeared. Long long ago back in meatworld I worked at this sort of thing myself, and there is an article or two with my meatworld name in the author credits on the 4GW page at http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/4gw_continued.htm . The group who wrote that first article know their stuff, IMHO, and several of them are still writing- Bill Lind is quite prolific though no less controversial, and I still hear from COL G. I. Wilson (also retired now) from time to time.
The "conventional" military doesn't like this stuff, because it rains all over the big-expensive-complicated-weapon-system parade. That's one reason you are finding this material at the DNI website, it was established by Chuck Spinney, now retired, when he was a Pentagon budget analyst. A disciple of the legendary USAF fighter pilot John Boyd, Spinney was long a thorn in the side of pork-barrel military/industrial complex politicians and generals. And IMHO Spinney was one of the taxpayers' best friends to ever inhabit a Pentagon desk, though few know his name.
Thanks for giving me a chance to increase that number...
lpl/nc (retired now, too)
COL Mike Wyly co-authored the seminal article on the concept of 4th Generation Warfare back in 1989. You can find it here: http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/4th_gen_war_gazette.htm . I have thought the concept was pretty much on target since I read that article when it first appeared. Long long ago back in meatworld I worked at this sort of thing myself, and there is an article or two with my meatworld name in the author credits on the 4GW page at http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/4gw_continued.htm . The group who wrote that first article know their stuff, IMHO, and several of them are still writing- Bill Lind is quite prolific though no less controversial, and I still hear from COL G. I. Wilson (also retired now) from time to time.
The "conventional" military doesn't like this stuff, because it rains all over the big-expensive-complicated-weapon-system parade. That's one reason you are finding this material at the DNI website, it was established by Chuck Spinney, now retired, when he was a Pentagon budget analyst. A disciple of the legendary USAF fighter pilot John Boyd, Spinney was long a thorn in the side of pork-barrel military/industrial complex politicians and generals. And IMHO Spinney was one of the taxpayers' best friends to ever inhabit a Pentagon desk, though few know his name.
Thanks for giving me a chance to increase that number...
lpl/nc (retired now, too)
Wow, my thread is renamed!
The subject of 4GW ties in with a lot of other stuff I have studied over the years (not to mention a few personal experiences) and it is an important one.
I think this subject, along with some of the other subjects in that article, are topics of import to all forum members, and worthy of discussion.
Thank you for your perserverance Mr. Lapin. Bureaucracies are very resistant to change, something I had to learn the hard way more than once.
The subject of 4GW ties in with a lot of other stuff I have studied over the years (not to mention a few personal experiences) and it is an important one.
I think this subject, along with some of the other subjects in that article, are topics of import to all forum members, and worthy of discussion.
Thank you for your perserverance Mr. Lapin. Bureaucracies are very resistant to change, something I had to learn the hard way more than once.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
nmshooter,
You might be interested to know who else has been reading about 4GW. Note the following snip:
http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/comments/c438.htm
Is 4GW al-Qa'ida's Official Combat Doctrine?
February 11, 2002
Comment: #438
Discussion Thread - Comment #s - 431, 429, 427, 278, 174, 171, 170
The attached special dispatch "Jihad and Terrorism Studies" comes from The Middle East Media Research Institute. It contains excerpts from a recent article by Mr. Abu 'Ubeid Al-Qurashi, in what purports to be al-Qa'ida's bi-weekly internet magazine, Al-Ansar.
Al-Qurashi attempts to explain al-Qa'ida's "combat doctrine." What is frightening about his explication is that he uses the American theory of Fourth Generation Warfare (4GW) to explain why al-Qa'ida's strategy will be successful against America over the long term.
As many readers know, 4GW is a theory of warfare developed by a small number reform-minded American military officers and an even smaller number of civilians. These people are despised - dare I say hated -- by the budget-crazed apparchiks of the Military - Industrial - Congressional Complex (MICC).
4GW has been the subject of many earlier blasters (see, for example, #s 431, 429, 427, 278, 174, 171, 170—links above). Bear in mind, it received first full articulation in a seminal article published by the Marine Corps Gazette in 1989, 12 years before atrocity of September 11, an article, incidentally, which is cited by Al-Qurashi. [New readers can find a copy of this article as well as many other essays on this subject on our Fourth Generation Warfare page.]
----------------------end snip-----------------------------------------
The URL for the first part of the DNI 4GW page is http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/fourth_generation_warfare.htm - I failed to notice the page has two parts now.
I always found it interesting that the discussions about 4GW drew participants from all branches of our military service who were willing if not eager to work together to develop ideas and exchange opinions. Of course most of those folks were/are considered as mavericks, outcasts, kooks etc. by their respective services. I wish the 4GW debate had accomplished more for us than it seems to have done, though it has made some differences in our favor.
lpl/nc
You might be interested to know who else has been reading about 4GW. Note the following snip:
http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/comments/c438.htm
Is 4GW al-Qa'ida's Official Combat Doctrine?
February 11, 2002
Comment: #438
Discussion Thread - Comment #s - 431, 429, 427, 278, 174, 171, 170
The attached special dispatch "Jihad and Terrorism Studies" comes from The Middle East Media Research Institute. It contains excerpts from a recent article by Mr. Abu 'Ubeid Al-Qurashi, in what purports to be al-Qa'ida's bi-weekly internet magazine, Al-Ansar.
Al-Qurashi attempts to explain al-Qa'ida's "combat doctrine." What is frightening about his explication is that he uses the American theory of Fourth Generation Warfare (4GW) to explain why al-Qa'ida's strategy will be successful against America over the long term.
As many readers know, 4GW is a theory of warfare developed by a small number reform-minded American military officers and an even smaller number of civilians. These people are despised - dare I say hated -- by the budget-crazed apparchiks of the Military - Industrial - Congressional Complex (MICC).
4GW has been the subject of many earlier blasters (see, for example, #s 431, 429, 427, 278, 174, 171, 170—links above). Bear in mind, it received first full articulation in a seminal article published by the Marine Corps Gazette in 1989, 12 years before atrocity of September 11, an article, incidentally, which is cited by Al-Qurashi. [New readers can find a copy of this article as well as many other essays on this subject on our Fourth Generation Warfare page.]
----------------------end snip-----------------------------------------
The URL for the first part of the DNI 4GW page is http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/fourth_generation_warfare.htm - I failed to notice the page has two parts now.
I always found it interesting that the discussions about 4GW drew participants from all branches of our military service who were willing if not eager to work together to develop ideas and exchange opinions. Of course most of those folks were/are considered as mavericks, outcasts, kooks etc. by their respective services. I wish the 4GW debate had accomplished more for us than it seems to have done, though it has made some differences in our favor.
lpl/nc
Balog
Member
Wonderful article. Reminds me all over again why I'm so proud to be a Marine.
Gregory J. Mayfield
Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2005
- Messages
- 12
Finally got through your reading assignment and I find that I knew most of these things myself. How many of us have felt that Jane Fonda sould have been tried for High Treason (if her antics were not 'aid and comfort to the enemy' I can hardly discribe something that was more). The cultural swing from national morality to something that accepts a 78% illegitimacy rate of black children and a 25% illegitimacy rate among white children. How many among the readers of these words DO NOT have someone of your aquaintence now, or in your own family, that thinks drugs are just ones own business and not the communities. Then we may add in the deterioration of our national sense of religion, of a moral fitness. Yes I would say that we are engaged at the present time in a 4th Generational war
nhhillbilly
Member
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2003
- Messages
- 544
Great article. Well worth reading for all. I am a LE and enjoyed it greatly and gave me much to ponder.
Sam
Member
I wish that the Air Force had paid as much attention to Col Boyd as the Marine Corps.
Sam
Sam
DRZinn
Member
Ummm, myself? That has nothing to do with the discussion.
While I agree with much of what William Lind has to say, I must disagree with some of his proposed solutions.
He tries to paint a bleak picture of order vs. chaos, stating that we must ally ourselves with countries like China to avoid collapse. While there are some in China who might have common cause with us, the Chinese government is not among them. In fact, I believe the Chinese government is actively interfering with our society.
I see no reason to support a hostile government.
As a matter of fact, the more chaos in the world, the more that may be gained by those poised to take advantage of it. There may well be some opportunities to rewrite political maps in a more favorable way. By supporting neutral and friendly groups in areas hostile to us, we may be able to avoid fighting large scale wars.
Iran comes immediately to mind.
I would prefer a more proactive stance than "build a big wall and hide behind it". Big walls have a poor track record.
So, am I full of myself, or what?
He tries to paint a bleak picture of order vs. chaos, stating that we must ally ourselves with countries like China to avoid collapse. While there are some in China who might have common cause with us, the Chinese government is not among them. In fact, I believe the Chinese government is actively interfering with our society.
I see no reason to support a hostile government.
As a matter of fact, the more chaos in the world, the more that may be gained by those poised to take advantage of it. There may well be some opportunities to rewrite political maps in a more favorable way. By supporting neutral and friendly groups in areas hostile to us, we may be able to avoid fighting large scale wars.
Iran comes immediately to mind.
I would prefer a more proactive stance than "build a big wall and hide behind it". Big walls have a poor track record.
So, am I full of myself, or what?
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Full of yourself? Hardly.
As I said earlier, Lind has been controversial in some circles for years, and for several reasons. Just because he gets his ideas in print doesn't mean you or anyone else is required to agree with him, if you can present better ideas or better arguments for your positions.
Keep on exploring the issues, reading and studying as widely and professionally as you can. You do not have to be a current service member to be well informed- there are a lot of professional military journals available freely online, if you want to read them. Your local library has many more journal titles available as well as books on various issues that will serve to give you historical background on the issues being discussed. Reading can give you a solid foundation to develop and support your views.
It is pretty much a sure thing that no one is going to go out of their way to educate you on these issues today. If it happens it will be a do-it-yourself proposition. But it has never been easier to do than now, because the resources have never been more widely available. Here are a few, in no particular order:
http://www.strategypage.com/default.asp
http://www.sftt.org/
http://www.defenselink.mil/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/index.html
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/Links.htm
lpl/nc
As I said earlier, Lind has been controversial in some circles for years, and for several reasons. Just because he gets his ideas in print doesn't mean you or anyone else is required to agree with him, if you can present better ideas or better arguments for your positions.
Keep on exploring the issues, reading and studying as widely and professionally as you can. You do not have to be a current service member to be well informed- there are a lot of professional military journals available freely online, if you want to read them. Your local library has many more journal titles available as well as books on various issues that will serve to give you historical background on the issues being discussed. Reading can give you a solid foundation to develop and support your views.
It is pretty much a sure thing that no one is going to go out of their way to educate you on these issues today. If it happens it will be a do-it-yourself proposition. But it has never been easier to do than now, because the resources have never been more widely available. Here are a few, in no particular order:
http://www.strategypage.com/default.asp
http://www.sftt.org/
http://www.defenselink.mil/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/index.html
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/Links.htm
lpl/nc
- Status
