An interesting type 99

[badwithnames]

Hi everyone

I've recently obtained a type 99 rifle (Toyo Kogyo arsenal) that I initially believed to be chambered in 7.7 Japanese, however, upon closer inspection i believe this example to actually be chambered in 8mm mauser. From what little research I have done on this it seems like the Chinese had rechambered these rifles to fire the cartridge. Would there be any markings on the rifle to indicate this as being the case?

 

[Slamfire]

Better check the barrel and make sure the tube is .323. Lots of GI brought these things back from WW2 and not all of them knew what they were doing. There is one particular story, told in the American Rifleman of the 1950's. A man had a 6.5 Arisaka, probably thought he had a 7.7, undoubtedly heard about rechambering a 7.7 Arisaka to 30-06, and decided what's what he wanted to do. According to the story, he had to reduce the pilot on the reamer, because the bore was smaller, and that did not ring any alarm bells in the man's head.

Anyway, he shot a number of 30-06 rounds and a deer with the rifle, before taking it to a gunsmith, complaining about how much the rifle recoiled. That is how the NRA got the rifle, and they shot 30-06 rounds in it, the bullets really elongated, and the rifle had not blown up. Post WW2, "everyone knew" the Japanese were suicidal maniacs who issued cast iron rifles to their service men, and everything they made was junk. If you can't tell, the WW2 generation hated the Japanese and thought we should have nuked the entire island from end to end.

It was a real surprise to find that maybe the Japanese actually built strong rifles. Which did not change anyone's opinion about hugging Japanese.

So anyway, if you have not checked the barrel diameter, you may have one of these rechamber specials!

this is one of those "cast iron service rifles"


from a couple of feet away, it looks like a service rifle, but it was issued to kids at military schools to march in formation, fire blanks, and attach bayonets. It was never made to fire a real round. Enough American knuckeheads put real service rounds in the things that all Arisaka's got a bad reputation.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Never seen one in 8mm Mauser, but it wouldn't surprise me. I've seen them rechambered in 7.62x39.

 

[tark]

Take an 06 or a 308 round and stick the bullet point into the muzzle. How tight a fit is it? If the bore is an 8mm the bullet will wobble around like a .270 in a .308 bore. Except for the bullet diameter, the two rounds are quite similar. Either can be formed from 06 brass.

 

[tmd16556]

I believe the Chinese made those sort of conversions around the Korean War era. I’m not sure how well they were marking things during the later phases of their civil war.

 

[Remington1911]

I believe the Chinese made those sort of conversions around the Korean War era. I’m not sure how well they were marking things during the later phases of their civil war.

Yea a few people did, it is a good strong rifle that was fairly cheap to convert to more standard flavors.

It is odd that the Chinese would do 8mm. You would think after the war 7.7Jap would be laying everywhere. Unless the soviets handed them truck loads of captured german ammo after the war. I could see it going both ways.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Yea a few people did, it is a good strong rifle that was fairly cheap to convert to more standard flavors.

It is odd that the Chinese would do 8mm. You would think after the war 7.7Jap would be laying everywhere. Unless the soviets handed them truck loads of captured german ammo after the war. I could see it going both ways.

8 mm Mauser was the standard cartridge for the Chinese Army from well before 1937. They used the Hanyang 88 (Gew 88), Kar 98ks, and other Mausers based rifles, Madsens, FN made BARs, Neuhausens, and BREN guns, all chambered in 8mm Mauser.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Type 38 and 99 7.62x39 Chinese conversions with SKS barrels were fairly common (I almost bought one), but Honeycutt's book Military Rifles of Japan shows a couple of the earlier 7.92x57 conversions (pp. 181-2). From the text, it appears he did not have an example of his own to inspect. He opines that the conversion was via reboring and setting back the barrel -- a relatively involved task, given the complex breech end of these barrels. Honeycutt states, "The clue that these are the Chinese modifications is that the 'grinding' of the characters [on the receiver ring] wraps nearly 180 degrees of the receiver, the chamber will only accept 7.92 Mauser cartridge, and the first barrel step extends only 3/32 inches from the receiver instead of the customary 3/16 inches".

Have you done a chamber cast yet? A few photos might be helpful.

 

[Remington1911]

8 mm Mauser was the standard cartridge for the Chinese Army from well before 1937. They used the Hanyang 88 (Gew 88), Kar 98ks, and other Mausers based rifles, Madsens, FN made BARs, Neuhausens, and BREN guns, all chambered in 8mm Mauser.

I do remember that, and also remember the Germans going to the Chinese in "help" against the Japanese, the Japanese said.....ahh wait a sec we are on the same side. In the dusty dark corners of my mind I want to say the Germans supplied a few tanks as well, I and II models I want to say....but don't really remember.

I would have thought by the time korea rolled around that the existing sources and plants would have been destroyed during WWII, Seems the Japanese would have gone after plants that made things like ammo.

We do know that the Soviets did get truck loads of stuff from the germans, I can see them handing it off to their new communist friends.

 

[Jim Watson]

I like reading about realistic weapons in fiction and not just the data dump out of Gun Digest commonly seen.

In the alternate history adventure, 'The Romanov Rescue', the Germans recruit Russian POWs to break out the Czar because they figure he is less inimical to them than the Soviets.
They furnish captured Mosins and Maxims with ample captured 7.62 ammo.
But for close work, they round up some of the newfangled MP18 SMGs and donate captured American 1911s that the Germans hate because of their heavy recoil.

And in one of the 'Black Chamber' stories, we find Germans using the Federov Automat, first captured, then copied. French operatives have the Ribeyrole automatic carbine, US characters have a fictional Browning light rifle, spookchicks get the Colt-Browning Amazon high capacity .40.

 

[badwithnames]

Sorry it's taken a bit to respond, been kinda busy.

All I've done so far is attempt to chamber dummy rounds; the rifle will not close on 7.7, but will on 8mm. I'll try to get some pictures taken sometime soon but in case it is helpful I will clarify that everything has been ground off of the top of the receiver.

Edit: in case it is at all relevant I want to mention that kar98 stripper clips work without any hiccups.

 

[Bcwitt]

Yea a few people did, it is a good strong rifle that was fairly cheap to convert to more standard flavors.

It is odd that the Chinese would do 8mm. You would think after the war 7.7Jap would be laying everywhere. Unless the soviets handed them truck loads of captured german ammo after the war. I could see it going both ways.

8x57 was the Chinese primary rifle in ww2.

 

[Jim Watson]

They just didn't know how far ahead they were with the 6.8x57 in 1907.

 

[badwithnames]

Type 38 and 99 7.62x39 Chinese conversions with SKS barrels were fairly common (I almost bought one), but Honeycutt's book Military Rifles of Japan shows a couple of the earlier 7.92x57 conversions (pp. 181-2). From the text, it appears he did not have an example of his own to inspect. He opines that the conversion was via reboring and setting back the barrel -- a relatively involved task, given the complex breech end of these barrels. Honeycutt states, "The clue that these are the Chinese modifications is that the 'grinding' of the characters [on the receiver ring] wraps nearly 180 degrees of the receiver, the chamber will only accept 7.92 Mauser cartridge, and the first barrel step extends only 3/32 inches from the receiver instead of the customary 3/16 inches".

Have you done a chamber cast yet? A few photos might be helpful.

Managed to take some pics, though I don't know how useful it will be for you. Sorry for the delay

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Boy, someone really took the angle grinder to the markings on the barrel and receiver! The boltface has also been altered, but the work looks much more carefully accomplished.

If you plan to shoot the rifle, at a minimum I'd recommend slugging the bore and checking the headspace. You can rent a set of gauges from these guys:
https://www.reamerrentals.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=8x57Maus.g
https://www.reamerrentals.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=7.7Jap.g

If you haven't done this before, here's a couple of DIY videos: