An observation on Preacherman's post on gangbanger 'George'

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Preacherman posted a story of a little 'shade tree gunsmithing' that was pretty funny.

I had a comment to make but thought it deserved it's own thread, so here we go.

With that being said and no disrespect intended, I find it interesting that no one has commented on an interesting point:

It seems George the gang-banger had "bought this carbine from a friend" (and the owner is running the serial number through our friend the captain, just to be sure...

Now I know this was just a bunch of guys sitting around the gunstore; Preacherman put it thus:

a gunshop owner, a police captain, a Catholic priest, a Presbyterian pastor, a butcher, a retired Marine NCO, and several other "old faithful"

And the gunshop owner was probably just indulging in a little ‘CYA’ but what if the serial number had come back as ‘missing, stolen or used in commission of a crime’? Good you say. Get that ‘gangbanger’ off the street.

Well… I know we have a pretty good cross-section of humanity on this board. And I know you city folk (me included) have seen plenty of ‘urban youth’ that dress the dress and talk the talk, but if they ever came face to face with an OG Big Block, WestMob, or Latin King set member, they’d stain their BVDs.

Which was George?

Heck, what if it had been your gun the PD captain was running the numbers on? (Though I’d like to think that no THR member would mutilate his or her firearm in the manner ‘George’ did… the ‘stupid gun purchase’ thread notwithstanding). I have a few firearms that aren't in my name, that I purchased legally (estate sales mostly), a long time ago. What if the gunshop owner didn't like my looks and had his friend the LEO captain, run the numbers. I go to pick up my firearm from the gunsmith and there are several officers waiting there with some hard questions. I’m pretty sure there would have been a tremendous hue and cry here on THR. And rightfully so. I just find it interesting that there was nary a peep about this from anyone though. And please, if anyone says...'Well if you have nothing to hide, why get upset about this?' I'll be amazed.

I’m sorry if the tin-foil yarmulka is a little tight this morning, but this seems like a clear violation of the 4th Amendment. So it happened to a punk gangbanger? Or maybe it happened to someone that just happened to look like a punk? Or maybe it happens to someone that the gunshop owner just doesn’t like the look of?

So tell me THR am I worrying about nothing? Or does this situation stink just a little?

 

[Ukraine Train]

I'm no gang expert but it seems to me there's a 'typical' look to a gang member and George happened to fit the profile. I also believe that most gang bangers aren't gun savvy, which seems to describe George, also. I think those two things are cause enough for concern. It's not like they detained George or questioned him, I think their actions were ok.

 

[blades67]

If I were a gunsmith and had a gun like that come in I'd ask Cap'n Friendly to run the number before investing any time into affecting repairs. There're some customers, not just the ones that look like 'bangers or wannabe's, that just give off the "somethin' ain't right here" vibe.

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

George happened to fit the profile

Now it's ok to profile people?
I'll admit that, yeah, there is a certain, uniform that 'bangers seem to adopt (What the heck is with the oversize pants falling off thing?). But what if 'George' just looked like a 'banger? AND was terminally stupid when it came to firearms? Is this a reason to violate his civil rights? Based on his looks?

No freaking way does that argument fly.

I think I'm a little sensitive to this issue because, once upon a time, a long time ago, in a far off land we call the Reagan era, I was a punk. Your classic studded leather jacket, pegged pants, 18-hole Docs, blue Mohawk, the whole nine yards. But I wasn't a criminal. Never broke the law once. (Ok so maybe I went 45 in a 35 zone...once. Maybe.) The thing is I know what profiling feels like.

'Blue haired Mohawk punk rocker? Must be a thug. Let's pound him.'

Ok so maybe 'George' was a thug OG 'banger. Did he actually do anything to give probable cause to run the serial number?

That there slope is pretty slippery... isn't it?

 

[Checkman]

The protections that the 4th amendment provide apply to the goverment. A private citizen can do what they want when it comes to searching your premises or having a serial number on a firearm run through NCIC. And if the firearm comes back as stolen of course the police are going to talk to the owner and yes the police will take the weapon. As a police officer whnever I ciome across a firearm in the course of an investigation I alwasy have dispatch run the serial number. I also do the same thing with vehicle VINS and stereo equipment.

The person in possession of the stolen propert isn't necessarily going to be charged though. It all depends on the situation.

As a gunowner and LEO I'm not sure that one can argue a reasonable expectation of privacy when one turns ones weapon over to a gunsmith. Guns are a very popular item with thieves - one reason is because most owners do not write down the serial numbers so if they are stolen there is nothing to give to the police to be entered into NCIC.

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Ok Checkman, I agree with you on those points, but what if the gunshop owner was concerned about the status of the firearm, so he asks his friend the LEO captain to run the serial numbers and they come back as stolen.

So when 'George' returns, a couple officers hook him up for possesion of a stolen firearm. Wouldn't a defense lawyer be able to argue that the PD had no reasonable cause to run the serial numbers, it was just a favor to the gunshop owner? And therefore not actionable?

Again, maybe it's just me, but I really dislike the idea of LEO action being taken because of someone's looks without probable cause.

 

[patent]

As a gunowner and LEO I'm not sure that one can argue a reasonable expectation of privacy when one turns ones weapon over to a gunsmith. Guns are a very popular item with thieves - one reason is because most owners do not write down the serial numbers so if they are stolen there is nothing to give to the police to be entered into NCIC.

Well said, I don't think you have a reasonable expectation of privacy when you hand a gun over to another person. If you want privacy, you need to discuss that with your gunsmith, IMHO, and I'd bet that most people don't want to have that conversation.

Keep it in your house, or on your person, you have some expectation of privacy. Hand it over to others, away it goes.

Now it's ok to profile people?

IMHO, yes. Seems to me an awful lot of EFFECTIVE policework involves observing how folks dress and act, and based on profiles, paying more attention to those who are acting/dressing in a fashion that indicates they may be criminally inclined.

patent

 

[Kodiak AK]

I am with QBG on this one .

So the guy looks like a banger so we run the gun , and that is OK .

What if he looks Muslim,Jewish,German,Asian?

 

[jsalcedo]

It sounds like the gunshop is doing things they way they used to before GCA 68. Instead of having gun laws to cover every possible gun owning scenario. The pre 68 gun shop would make gun selling decisions based on
instinct. This includes calling the cops on suspicious looking characters with guns just as their civic duty.

Don't get me wrong. More than 10 years ago I was a hippie looking dude
Ripped jeans, tie dye, sandals long hair and beard. Little did they know I was a law abiding, right leaning, gun afficianado.

Going to gunshops was a pain, I was treated like (insert feces reference)
Most of the time no one would wait on me. (Until I pulled out the Amex gold card) then I was their best friend.

Do I agree with a shop running the SN on a gun based on the looks of the customer?

The law doesn't say they have to profile customers but it may be a good idea in certain cases and may end up putting a real bad guy away.

Things are not always black and white.

If you saw a gang of rough looking dudes in gang garb traipsing
through your neighborhood at 2:00 am would you call the cops on them?

 

[pwrtool45]

patent,

And an awful lot of ineffective police work is conducted the same way as well. It's all well and good until you're the target of some of that profiling. The whole "we *know* you're up to something" schema gets old. Fast. I can't help but notice the outrage on boards like this when some local LEO gives a gun-owner grief because of being an gun owner. (e.g., recent threads about open carry and various uninformed LEOs' subsequent actions.) I wonder how many people indifferent on this topic would be indifferent if a LEO told them they were part of a "right wing conspiracy" with "guns and bombs hidden all over the country" so they could meet with other "militia memebers" and do unspeakably evil things just because they were a gun-owner/CCW holder.


QuarterBore,

As a former long-haired, baggy-clothes suspicious character, I've simply come to expect that some people are going to give me a hard time. Regardless of what one does or says, there are some people who just don't trust you if you fit a given description (which, of course, varies from person to person). I avoid these people and the places they frequent when possible, and simply increase my awareness when not. I don't expect the typical gun-shop crowd to cotton to people like me, and regardless of the fact I go out of my way to be polite and courteous, I'm not often disappointed in that regard.

Unless someone's going out of their way to be less than civil, I don't pay it much mind. If the lady behind the counter at the music store is nice to me and the old guy behind the counter at the gun store isn't guess where I'll spend more money? I've found that simply making an effort to be decent person to others will have a dramatic impact on the interaction. In the cases where people still want to be standoff-ish, well, that's their right. That's the beauty of Mail/web orders. Everything except the firearms themselves are often available at very attractive prices with at least equal after-the-sale support. If I didn't have a good indy CD store here in town that had cool people, there's always amazon.com. If I don't feel like dealing with cold stares from gun store people, there's brownells and midway and a ton of other places. *shrug* I don't mind paying more to support local businesses, but I'm not going to get raked over the coals by indifferent people for the principle, either. Case in point, Larry's Pistol and Pawn (local shop) has about half a dozen M44 Nagants on the shelf....for $119-$129 each. With an inexpensive C&R FFL, they cost less than half that (~ $50).

 

[Car Knocker]

If you'll let me pick a couple of nits, I'll make this observation:

When the gunsmith accepted the firearm for repair and kept it overnight, he was required to enter it into his bound book as an "acquisition". When he hands it back to "George" he makes an entry in his bound book as a "disposition". In the meantime, the firearm is under his control, in his possession and he is responsible for it. If the gunsmith has a "bad feeling" about a firearm or a person who left it in his legal possession, does he not have a duty, as a "reasonable, prudent person", to take action to determine whether the firearm is stolen or perhaps used in a crime? After all, if it indeed is stolen, is he not in possession of stolen property and subject to possible legal sanctions?

Some people, prior to making a private party purchase of a firearm, ask the police to run the serial number to ensure that it is not stolen. Is that a violation of the seller's rights or is it just a prudent thing to do in some instances?

In any case, I don't think "George's" rights have been violated by the police since he did not have possession of the gun when the request to "run the numbers" was made. The request was made by the person in possession.

 

[Checkman]

Some good points here. Hopefully this thread is showing how police work in a free society (which we are) is as much of an art as a science. At 2:00 A.M. I'm going to stop and talk to anyone walking around in a residential area, a business area or an industrial area. I wouldn't be a good cop if I didn't. But if that citizen wants to walk away from me and I have no PC (probable cause) to hold him all I can do is wish him a good evening and watch him walk away. Of course that same individual might have come from a house where he raped his ex-girlfriend and then strangled her. Unfortunately he's a sociopath and isn't subject to the same emotional and physical reactions that most of us are. He probably took a shower before leaving her residence and made sure that he was presentable.

When the press finds out that I had him and "let him go" I'm a stupid bad cop. That's police work and sometimes you're dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

I think that the gunsmith did the right thing. And so it goes.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

I don't know about where 'George' is from, but here, the shop would probably be required to run the gun. I know pawn shops can't sell anything here until it has been checked by the police.

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Some good point being made here.

Profiling. I’m guilty of it too I’ll admit. When I managed a gunstore, I denied sales based upon, as blades67 put it ‘that (they) just give off the "somethin' ain't right here" vibe. I had it clearly posted that we could ‘refuse to do business for any reason’ that we wanted. I have no problem with that. It’s a business; your livelihood and I don’t need the hassle. If the sale didn’t smell right, then NO SALE. Did we lose the occasional sale because of it? Absolutely. Did we piss off a potential customer? Yeah, we did. But when you’re talking about your business, well sometimes it happens.

Where I have a problem is when the police are involved. We (my former business) were on very good terms with the local LEOs. Heck we probably had uniformed and plainclothes officers in the store every other day. But it would never have crossed my mind to say to one of them ‘hey this guy looks suspicious (for WHATEVER reason) why don’t you run him through the system?’ If the guy looked like bad news, guess what? I don’t need to do business with him. I would never have dreamed of taking in gunsmithing and then having PD check him out. I just wouldn’t have taken in the firearm.

When private citizens start reporting and denouncing their neighbors because of ‘well we don’t like they way they look’-

Where does that put us people?

 

[Balog]

I'm still confused about what the problem is.
If I see a creepy looking guy hanging out around my kid's playground taking pictures, would it be a violation of his civil rights for me, as a concerned citizen, to call the po-po to have them check it out? Sure, he could just be a parent trying to get candid pics of his own camera shy kid. But no matter how innocent it may be, it still looks suspicious.
Since when is having the cops investigate suspicious behaviour a violation of anyone's civil rights? I thought that was their job?

The gunshop owner saw something that to his mind was suspicious, and had the po-po check it out. Nothing in the world wrong with that. Whether or not you agree with his reasons for being suspicious seem irrelevant.

 

[Kodiak AK]

When private citizens start reporting and denouncing their neighbors because of ‘well we don’t like they way they look’-Where does that put us people?

1930-45 Germany.
Taliban era Afghanistan.
1917-Present day of certain parts Soviet Union.
And to be fair 1941-45 USA.

 

[Penforhire]

QBG's point is best appreciated, to me, by his thought: what if I bought a gun years ago that I want kept "off the radar." Say a private sale back in 1975. There is some damage done to my paranoid self by having that number 'registered' with the local authorities. One more way for the gun-grabbers to come get all mine.

Seems to me I'd discuss that situation with a gunsmith before I contract with him for the work. It would be okay for him to run the number to see if stolen but otherwise NO information should be shared with authorities.

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Balog- curse you! You're making me back peddle a bit, because in the situation you describe, I could easily see myself dropping a dime.

I guess the bottom line of my concern is this-

Situation 1: Gunshop owner takes in a firearm for gunsmithing. Decides he doesn't like the looks of the person that brought it in. (For whatever reason.) Has his friend the LEO captain run the serial number.

Situation 2: My neighbors like to play mahjong in their garage until all hours of the night. I think they may be gang members up to no good. I call PD to come check them out. And while they're here they can check out that guy living at the end of the street. He never comes out during the day. He's probably a fugitive. Or a vampire. Better check him out too.

I don't know. I guess I'm just overly sensitive about the issue of PD intervention based upon how someone looks. Who decides who looks suspicious and who doesn’t?

 

[Preacherman]

I used to think as you do, QBG - but working in a max-security prison has changed my perspective somewhat. There are so many BG's out there (particularly "gangsta" types), responsible for a hugely disproportionate percentage of reported and unreported crime, that I take "gangsta" folks very seriously indeed. I've had to pull a gun in confrontations with them on more than one occasion - they would try to get me to smuggle drugs or messages in to their comrades, or bring stuff out, and of course I refused, and had to make my refusal rather more strongly than a simple "No". If I see anyone dressed like or acting in a manner reminiscent of the "gangsta" culture, I'm automatically in Condition Orange. I think that the gunshop owner did exactly the right thing in checking the gun out, and if it had come back as a stolen weapon, I would totally support police action to confiscate the gun and determine where George had got it. If he couldn't provide a reasonable explanation, I'd have no problem with charging him with possession of stolen property.

In the same way, if I took a gun to a gunsmith and he ran the serial number to check its legality, I would not have a problem with that. He's covering himself. If I were to have him fix a stolen gun, that I then used to kill some innocent person, guess what kind of lawsuits he'd be facing from the survivors? "My friend/relative would not have been killed if you hadn't repaired the gun, which you could reasonably have checked and found to be stolen! You owe me $10,000,000.00!"

 

[Balog]

QBG: I hear you. I hate the idea of the cops investigating innocent people for no reason. But the classic problem is, of course, where do we draw the line about what warrants suspicion?

In my mind, the po-po exist to serve the public. If a member of the public, rightly or wrongly, feels suspicious or nervous it's their job to check it out.
Can this result in innocents getting hassled? Sure it can, and I hate that. But the alternative is no one every reporting legitimately suspicious activity for fear of "profiling" or being "un-politically correct." It's kind of a Catch-22, but I say as long as the complaint originates with a private citizen the coppers have a limited right and obligation to check the situation out.
In other words, if you drop a dime on your neighbors bridge game, the cops can come around and ask 'em questions. But they can't use your tip as justification to conduct a no-knock SWAT raid.

 

[Greg L]

Does running the gun give the store owner all the information available about the owner of the gun or is it a simple yes the gun is reported stolen or no it is not?

If it is a simple yes or no response by the police then I don't see what the problem is, either it gets a hit as stolen or it doesn't. If the report from the police comes back as "According to the ATF, Mr. "x" owns the gun, he lives at .... , hobbies are .... drives a .... credit rating is .... & he had burritos for dinner last night so you probably don't want him in the store too long" then there is cause for serious concern.

However a simple "yes it is & we need to look into this further" or "no, as far as we know it is clean" shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Greg

 

[patent]

And an awful lot of ineffective police work is conducted the same way as well. It's all well and good until you're the target of some of that profiling. The whole "we *know* you're up to something" schema gets old.

Certainly. Nothing is perfect. We have to make tradeoffs somewhere. Just having a police department means some folks are going to get hastled unnecessarily, no matter where we draw the line. That is alot better than having no police, etc. We just have to draw the line somewhere, and personally I don't have a problem with profiling. Of course, its rare it would happen to me these days, but I didn't have a problem with it back when I was more a member of a common target group. I just considered it sort of a natural common sense sort of thing, I guess.

I wonder how many people indifferent on this topic would be indifferent if a LEO told them they were part of a "right wing conspiracy" with "guns and bombs hidden all over the country" so they could meet with other "militia memebers" and do unspeakably evil things just because they were a gun-owner/CCW holder.

If a person can't take being told he is a right wing nut, he doesn't have the mental constitution for handling firearms to begin with. I assume your thought is that the LEO would take it further than merely making a statement, and would do background checks, etc.

Fine. I plan to do background check on my daughter's boyfriends when they get older. ;-) Again, I'm willing to put up with some profiling, so long as any conviction/confiscation/etc. has to be duly and lawfully obtained. I know, sometimes it isn't, but again, no system is perfect.

If I don't feel like dealing with cold stares from gun store people, there's brownells and midway and a ton of other places. *shrug* I don't mind paying more to support local businesses, but I'm not going to get raked over the coals by indifferent people for the principle, either.

Agree 100%.

patent

 

[Telperion]

Hey QuarterBore, how's it been going? We have to get a shoot going sometime soon.

As you related from your experience in the biz, sometimes red lights go off and you decide to terminate a sale. I think the smith got the same gut feeling, and intuition is a powerful tool. But, I am curious to know at what point it becomes malfeasence to ask a LEO to access privledged data (in this case, NCIC or NICS) on a personal hunch. At some point we need to decide what constitutes an investigation of a citizen's legitimate concern, and what is an abuse of office as a personal favor.

 

[another48hrs]

I can understand what QuarterBoreGunner is saying. Profiling is wrong, but most people can't help it. It is a cultural bias to see someone of a different subculture or culture to seem strange or up to no good. But in theory it shouldn't happen here, because the US to me wasn't built as just a place for one ethnic group who are tied by physical features and a common language(Like people who live in Great Britain, Germany etc, because that is how their countries are founded), but for people who believe in an idea of liberty and property.

QuarterBoreGunner also I too was a punk(sort of), I used to be in to the hardcore scene(Minor Threat, Black Flag, before Henry Rollins took that band into jock rock, etc.). Now that I'm into firearms I can't afford going to shows and hanging out now I have a job. Sometimes I play mahjong with my Grandmother (She must be up to no good ).

Oh, yeah one more thing. Being from the Bay area did you ever see the Dead Kennedys?

 

[Checkman]

If a serial number is run through ILETS/NCIC, and it's been listed as stolen, all that comes back is that the item was listed as stolen out of such and such jurisdiction on such and such date. It also provides a brief description of the property. I'm sorry but I don't see how that's an invasion of anybody's privacy. If you're ever a victim of a theft or burglary just don't give any serial numbers to the officer taking the report and in the future nobody will ever be harrassed by the police because they have possession of your property.

Now if an officer is running a criminal history check on somebody because he was asked to by a friend or local business owner that's another story. Periodically police departments are audited on their NCIC inquirys and if they can't show why the check was ran there is going to be trouble.

And by the way if a bunch of guys are playing a table game in a garage on private property at 2:00 A.M. they're okay. Unless they are disturbing the peace - which translates to screaming, excessive (loud) profanity or fighting.