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Another excessive use of force

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by RPZ, Jul 5, 2017.

  1. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    And that's what a trial is for -- to decide the facts upon which the legal result will be based.

    Which underscores the importance of knowledge and the training to effectively make use of the knowledge. In any case, if one did not make good decisions in the violent incident, it becomes far more likely that the outcome in the legal aftermath will be unsatisfactory. That's just part of the harsh reality of life.

    No, the correct characterization, if one has properly learned his skills is "reflexively" -- without conscious thought. We observe what's going on around us as we drive and execute whatever physical tasks are called for under the apparent circumstances without needing to consciously think through each step.

    If you've trained properly, you're not necessarily consciously thinking about any of that. You've decided what to do and are doing it -- reflexively, without conscious thought.

    In any case, it is the reality that your use of violence will be dissected, examined, and analyzed by others, after the fact and at their leisure. And it's they who will be deciding if your act of violence was justified.
     
  2. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Again, I disagree. I've witnessed countless times over the past forty years where individuals have been able to properly and "reflexively" demonstrate skills in the training arena, yet in combat or on the street have failed to do so.

    And what you are saying is contradicting Kleanbore's previous post. In any event, I disagree still, as you will have conscious thoughts in a lethal force situation but they may have nothing to do with what you've trained on. An untrained person responds "reflexively," a trained person (should, but doesn't always) respond in accordance with his/her training. There's no amount of training that will simulate how you will react the first time you are engaged in a lethal force encounter. If there were, sales of adult diapers would probably go up.
     
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  3. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    Of course you have. Nothing is perfect. People make mistakes. People make bad decision.

    Training and practice won't guarantee that you won't make mistakes or bad decisions. They just improve the chances that you might not.

    But:

    Nothing changes any of that. What do you plan to do about it?
     
  4. boom boom

    boom boom Member

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    Life is probabilistic, just like when you play poker, you try to maximize the odds in your favor in a hand. Training does that for the armed citizen.
     
  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    To the extent that there may be a departure, it is die to my imprecision in the choice of words.

    I said " it behooves us to also think about the questions 'is he really still attacking me, or is he withdrawing?', 'is that a handkerchief or a wallet that he just pulled out?', 'is anyone moving into my line of fire in the foreground or in the background?', and of course, the question at hand: 'is he still capable of causing me immediate harm?'."

    "Think about" may not convey what I intended to convey. Perhaps "observe whether" would be more appropriate.

    In any event, It is certainly possible to train for most of that, via simulation and FoF drills, except perhaps for assessing whether that last shot was adequate.

    As someone said, a gunfight is no place to learn new skills.

    The crux of the issue is that simply training and practicing to "remember remembering 'front sight, front sight' while trying to get your weapon on target and possibly seeking cover" can be a recipe for disaster. One should train to decide when resort to the use of deadly force; when not to; when to stop; and very importantly, how to do so in a manner that does not recklessly endanger others.

    Interestingly, that last point was never specifically addressed in any of the training I have received, but the first time I found myself in a use of force situation outside the home, it was an automatic part of my reaction.
     
  6. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Then they have most likely neglected a critical part of their training. Stress inoculation. One can ace all of the drills on the range, shoot a 3 second el presidente, but if you don't learn to function under stress it's all for naught. The military uses things like high obstacles on the confidence course, the 200 foot night rappel in the mountain phase of Ranger school and other exercises that put the student in a situation that induces real fear and requires them to perform anyway. There is more to training to fight then skill at arms.
     
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  7. strambo

    strambo Member

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    Heh, what Jeff said!

    It isn't so black and white as side A that says train to unconscious competence and you'll do that and side B that says even so, under combat stress you may still screw up.

    Both are true and neither are true depending on other factors. The missing link is getting better and better at performing under high stress. The less stress inoculation you have, they less you will be able to tap into your skills and the less conscious control you'll have over things. The more stress inoculation you have, the more you will have access to your skills and the more conscious control you'll have.

    The extreme on the "inoculated" side is our Tier 1 operators who have been through so much high stress training of all types along with many combat operations that their combat performance is very close to their square range performance. So much so, the guy who shot Bin Laden said he quit the Navy after he stopped getting adrenaline dumps in firefights and that scared him!

    Before I understood any of this, when I was in High School I practice TaekwonDo. I was extremely coordinated, could do all the fancy jump-spinning kicks etc., far beyond my belt level. Anyway, I entered my first tournament. Due to the stress, all I could do was reverse punch, round house kick. That's it, it was like all my other skills were locked away behind a mental wall. I remember thinking what's wrong with me, why can't I do anything else? Then I got kicked in the solar plexus...:rofl:
     
  8. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    And I'm telling you that in real life, in my experience, the latter portion of what you are saying is not what is gonna be going through your head during your first lethal force encounter.
     
  9. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Argh! No kidding. And again I say, when you are training, no matter what "stress inoculation" techniques are currently in vogue, your subconscious knows that you're training. The o-course or any fricken' stupid night rappel still doesn't loosen your bowels or your bladder sphincter like realizing those are real mortar or rocket rounds getting close to your position ... It's when you hear that peculiar buzzing noise of bullets going past you that you either perform ... or don't.
     
  10. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    You're still missing the point:

    Nothing changes any of that. What do you plan to do about it?
     
  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    That will depend upon your training, your knowledge base, and your mindset.

    If it does not, you risk getting into a whole lot of trouble.

    We see reports of such issues here frequently. This thread is a case in point.

    Some months ago, a store clerk in Las Vegas was alarmed by the behavior of some individuals entering his store. He resorted to what he had practiced: drawing, grip, getting into a position to hit his targets, stance, thinking 'front sight, front sight' , and pressing the trigger rapidly and repeatedly. He has been charged with murder.

    A little realistic "shoot-no shoot" training might have gone a long way toward keeping him out of that predicament.

    Some summers ago, I happened into a situation in which a robbery was undeniably imminent. I reacted properly, no shots were fired, no one was hurt, and the robbers fled in panic.

    Stress? You bet! I could not even describe the robbers' car afterward.
     
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  12. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Who tells gravity that it's only training? When you are 40 feet up pulling yourself over the next bar, if you fall, gravity thinks it's real, not training.

    image258.jpg

    So you're argument is that training is worthless because one either has it or they don't and only combat will separate the men from the boys? REALLY?????

    Are you trying to justify your personal choice not to train?

    I've spent my entire adult life in the Infantry and after retirement working in LE in a rural area where backup might be 20 minutes or more away. I attribute my success in those endeavors not to my "having what it takes" but to the training I was provided and sought out on my own. My initial reaction to bullets going past was disbelief that it was actually happening. I think that it was because I had already learned that I could keep my head and think clearly while scared to death. How did I learn that? Stress inoculation. If you think your bowels aren't loose and your sphincter isn't tight the first time you exit an aircraft in flight depending on a parachute to take you safely to the ground, you're wrong. I can definitely say I was more scared on my first jump then I was the first time I was shot at.

    Stress inoculation works. Thousands of soldiers and Marines will testify to that.
     
  13. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    No, I am not missing the point. I get this: "...In any case, it is the reality that your use of violence will be dissected, examined, and analyzed by others, after the fact and at their leisure. And it's they who will be deciding if your act of violence was justified." because, well, gosh, I have been in this position. More than once.

    What do I plan to do about it? The best I can, of course, and that includes continuing training because one can never have enough training since learning is a life-long process.

    You missed my point. Sometimes ... stuff happens and no matter how well we performed, we cannot control the aftermath. I've worked for an employer that's paid out millions of dollars in settlements to family members of deceased or disabled criminals even though the use of force was entirely appropriate to the situation, legal and within the scope of agency policy. "Objective reasonableness" is a lofty ideal, but it's not always the reality.
     
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  14. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    That's is not the came thing as saying "And I'm telling you that in real life, in my experience, the latter portion of what you are saying about [deciding when resort to the use of deadly force; when not to; when to stop; and very importantly, how to do so in a manner that does not recklessly endanger others] is not what is gonna be going through your head during your first lethal force encounter".
     
  15. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    I actually enjoyed rappelling when I was younger. Injecting fear into training is worthwhile. Never said it wasn't.

    And where did I say training is worthless? Good heavens. I believe training is necessary, invaluable and should continue until we're planted in the dirt farm. I have not made any personal choice not to train. I love training (and have been actively engaged in some type of combat or use of force training since 1979). I would agree that stress inoculation is of immense benefit for instilling mindset and preparing one for dealing with fear, and training methods have advanced admirably in this regard. But it doesn't always work for everyone; we all have different fears (mine is heights, which I still deal with) and some are not conquerable.
     
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  16. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    I'm not really trying to argue with you. I totally agree that training should include realistic and multiple variables of "shoot/don't shoot" scenarios to prepare the military member/law enforcement officer/armed citizen for different types of encounters that could result in decisions to use deadly physical force (your store robbery example is excellent). Again, it's simply that I've seen some folks I respected, skilled and (I thought) well-trained who didn't perform well in some situations and also responded to, or studied, a handful of events where totally untrained individuals responded and provided textbook results.

    Finally, I do agree that firearms training should incorporate sessions where the student is forced to either disengage, withdraw, stop shooting and assess. We absolutely need to get away from training scars such as "shoot to slide-lock" ... But training, no matter how solid or how much, isn't always the sole predictor of how each individual responds or thinks during their first lethal force encounter.
     
  17. Snyper

    Snyper Member

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    If you can't understand I meant it won't change what had already happened, I can't help you with that.
     
  18. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    I said "did not". I understand now. Thanks.
     
  19. pezo

    pezo Member

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    The defender seems clearly justified. A guy blocks you in and takes a blunt object to you. You don't see the need to shoot? Geez. I had a friend years ago who followed the advice to just drive away from a car jacking. That was 25 years ago he was murdered trying to out run a bullet.
     
  20. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    That's not the question--at all.

    The issue is that he did not stop shooting at the point when the continued use of deadly fore was no longer necessary.

    As Carl N. Brown stated in Post 96, "...it is imperative for a handgun carry permit holder to know when not to shoot, when to shoot, and when to stop shooting. When the threat is stopped, continuing use of lethal force is not justified".

    Listen to the narration with the video.
     
  21. pezo

    pezo Member

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    /\ yes I agree. But post number two is blatantly wrong headed. It set me off. The gun was the most appropriate tool needed and needed faster than the victim was able to get it. The last shot controversial but my opinion is who was the guy who started the violence? I do understand the requirement to only use force until the threat is over. But I'd take some consideration watching the swift violence displayed by mr carry a big stick. Ps to to the folks who always say just run. I've lost two aquaintances who were killed fleeing from a situation. They'd been better off charging and fighting.
     
  22. pezo

    pezo Member

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    Do not agree. The guy was good until the controversial third shot. But if I were a juror, after watching that vid I'd show mercy. Just my opinion.
     
  23. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    I will add here that watching the video, at least as far as resolution allows, the last shot actually appears to be an act of aggression. I am going on everything leading up to it, having to reach over a third party that has intervened, and the "defender's" posture and body movements. It just does not appear to be necessary, and my impression is this guy was just angry at this point.
     

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