Another "help the newbie" thread

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matt-s

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Hi All,

I have been reading this and several other forums for a while. I am considering becoming a firearms owner for the first time. I have read a lot of the newbie threads, but I feel like my requirements are a little different than what I have seen so for, so here it goes:

* I live in NJ, so I don't have options for trying before I buy
* Given the purchasing-permit process here, I have to go through the process again if I want to purchase > 90 or 180 days from now. So I would rather jump as close to the end of this process as possible, rather than exploring my options incrementally
* This will be a range-only pistol. Obviously, I can not carry here, and I am not concerned about home-defense. I could see myself doing something like IDPA down the line if I can find the time.
* While I might get a .22 pistol to supplement this, I want to keep this about center-fire pistols.

1. I am setting aside about $750 for this.
2. I am happy to purchase pre-owned (certified or not) to get a better pistol for my money
3. Yes, I will set aside money for basic pistol training. I have the 4 rules of safety burned into my memory. This is not included in the above $750.
4. As noted, this is really a target / "sport" pistol.
5. I am a big fan of design / manufacturing / engineering. The eon's of evolution and "form-following-function" design is what draws me to becoming a firearms owner. So I would like to get something that would appeal to me in this respect.
6. I would like something with great safety features. Since this is a range piece, I don't worry about fiddling with safeties in the heat of battle, etc.
7. I am leaning towards 9mm for the variety of options and low operational cost.
8. I feel like I need to consider .45 as well, since the 1911's are so highly respected. That said, I have never shot a .45 - so not knowing better I am intimidated by the caliber and single action design. Other threads I have read say the .45 is not really that much more bang/flash than a 9mm though . . .

So - the obvious suspects (I think) are:
* HK USP or P30 (not sure if I will like the plastic, see point 5 above).
* Sig 229 / 226?
* One of the dizzying arrays of 1911's

So, finally, my questions:

A. Given how hard it is to try before you buy in NJ, how do I go about narrowing this down?
B. How do I select the right variant to match my interests? I find this especially confusing with the Sig product line, never mind 1911's!!!
C. Given my requirements (esp #5) am I missing something here?

I shot a 9mm pistol ONCE (a Sig in Las Vegas). I have shot skeet/trap before. I have .22 rifle experience from Boy Scout camp probably two decades ago.

Sorry for the long post, but I am really trying to get to what I feel makes my request different from those I have gone through via "search". Most of those are also looking for SD / HD / CCW options. Also - most of the other posters have the luxury of rentals and buying as many firearms as they want once licensed to finally find what they are looking for.

Thanks!
 
A range/sport/target/home defense pistol need not be small or light. While I don't have personal experience with them, this has "CZ75 SP01" written all over it. The 1911 is also eminently suitable, as are some "target/sport" models of SIGs (but I don't recommend SIG's 1911s). Regarding the .45 cartridge, don't let the hype fool you. It has more of a "boom" than "crack" report, little muzzle flash and a "sharp push" instead of a "snap" or hard kick to the recoil. I would engage in a little "reverse hype" of my own and say that it is like playing pattycake to shoot. ;) It does cost about 30% more than 9mm.

I hope NJ has no "approved list" law. :scrutiny:
 
A range/sport/target/home defense pistol need not be small or light. While I don't have personal experience with them, this has "CZ75 SP01" written all over it
Click to expand...

I own one – excellent gun, reliable and accurate - I can highly recommend it, but it’s a full size gun. I assume you are allowed to at least handle a gun in the gun shop before buying? At least you can tell if it fits your hand and get a sense of the weight.

The guns in your list are also excellent from an accuracy/reliability/quality standpoint.

As for the 1911 in .45: yes, nothing to be concerned about with regard to recoil – I actually shoot my 1911s the best. I own only Colts and as I try to recommend only guns I actually know it’s hard to comment on other 1911s. I can recommend Colts, a model 01991 or 01091 stainless is an excellent first 1911. I’ve shot SAs and liked them – if there were no more Colts (or when I buy all there are :D) I’d go with an SA 1911.

Good luck, keep us posted.
 
advice

Welcome to the forum!

I had this same question about a year ago, while living in CA. A lot of guys told me to try it before you buy it. Where I lived, it cost $45 per gun just to try plus ammo.... By the time i would have tried all the guns, i could have bought one. i understand you can't try pistols in NJ... how far is the state line? Can you go to a range and ask other shooters if you can take a couple shots?

I know nothing of the laws in NJ, but from my experience, it is imperative to try pistols prior to buying. In my case, the decision was down to a G17 or XD9. I bought the G17 off gunbroker. The way my hand is shaped, the G17 gave me blisters after 20 shots. I then went out and tried a bunch of handguns, and decided the XD had the best ergos for my hands. i sold the G17 (lost $$$) and bought an XD (paid more $$$ - waited 10 more days). I have since then shot 250 rounds per session with the XD9 and it doesn't effect my hands at all.

If you can take a day trip out of state, or talk to some local shooters to see if they'll let you try their pistols, it would really help. Trust me, you won't be happy if you spend $750 on a pistol and it hurts your hand every time you shoot it! Plus the whole sell and re-buy scenario just sucks. I also know that most 1911's are great, but there are some out there that have issues. If you're really looking at 1911's, 1911forum.com can probably help you decide on the make/model/upgrades for your money.

Wish I could help more, but I learned this lesson the hard way.
 
You might also want to consider a gun that offers: the ability of using a .22LR conversion kit on the same frame; the ability to convert the existing frame to another caliber. I believe there are .22 conversions for Glock, Browning, CZ, and the venerable 1911 pistols. You can also convert some Glock models to another caliber (.40S&W, .357 SIG, and 9mm.), as well as converting Super 38 and 9mm. on a 1911 frame. Something you might want to consider provided it is permitted under NJ law.
 
Where I lived, it cost $45 per gun just to try plus ammo...
Click to expand...

Another way of thinking of it is that it was also a heck of a lot of fun shooting all those weapons. Yes, I was acquiring information about which weapon I wanted to buy, but i was also shooting - which was pretty much fun! So for me, it was $45 to test the gun and spend an afternoon shooting.

The only thing that I would add to your list is to take a quick look at revolvers. Rent one, and see what you like. I shot lots of autos, and then for the heck of it, I tried a Blackhawk. My budget was a good deal tighter than yours, but the Blackhawk had the sweetest trigger of all the guns I'd rented. I bought a new one for $399 plus tax. I have been shooting it for a year, and my sense is that I know a heck of a lot more about sight picture and trigger control than I would have learned with that simple weapon than with an auto. But I may be wrong about that. :)

For self defense, there are folks who don't like SA revolvers. But for a range gun, mine has worked very well.

Mike
 
a word of caution...

once you start buying....


it becomes impossible to stop.

Welcome to the happiest addiction of your life, and to your new support group, THR.

:evil:
GP
 
Thanks for the replies so far.

* Rentals are not an option in NJ (at least not northern NJ).
* I guess I could drive out to PA - but my free time is little and far between these days.
* From what I can tell, there are few restrictions on what you can buy. For instance, I was surprised to see a HK USP tactical under the counter, threaded for a silencer. I don't think there is a *real* restriction on capacity, either.

I guess I could hold a few, probably once I have my pistol purchase permit in hand. I have a Firearms ID card for long guns already, but you need to get a permit for each pistol you buy. I expect to have that in hand in ~2 weeks.

The guy behind the counter at the local shop was not terribly outgoing. They don't seem to suffer newbies very well there. Too many tire-kickers? Maybe they'll be warmer when I show up with my permit to purchase. That said, I do hope to go pre-owned.
 
I would say you're looking at all the usual suspects. Sig,Beretta,Glock,H&K,CZ and all of the 1911's - which is probably the most expensive option as well. You can look at the Springfield XD and the S&W M&P too.

Since you are not worried about home defense (and I'd like to know why,but that's for another thread),what you can basically do is save some money by not getting some of the options like night sights,rails,etc.

I can't really recommend a "best pistol",that's for you to decide after you've shot them all. Not what you wanted to hear,I know.

The guy behind the counter at the local shop was not terribly outgoing. They don't seem to suffer newbies very well there. Too many tire-kickers? Maybe they'll be warmer when I show up with my permit to purchase.
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Don't count on it. In my experience,they're either glad to see you or they're surly codgers who think they're doing you a favor by taking your money.

Don't trust them to recommend something good for you either. They'll probably push what they need to sell.
 
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Contact the closest ranges to you in PA or NY. Ask them if they have rental psitols for people to shoot. If so, find out what types of pistols they have. Also find out if a NJ state rtesident can shoot at these ranges with the rental pistols. That way you can try what you like. Are you sure there are no ranges like that in NJ?

I don't know where you are in NJ, but if close to NYC, here is one in Manhattan you might try: http://www.westsidepistolrange.com/ If they do not allow non-members, you ca contact me and I'll take you as a guest if they allow out of state folks to shoot there.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
Just to add a wildcard to your choices...... One of the hands down favorites when I setup shoots where folks might have around 40 different Handguns alone to play with isn't even a commercially made pistol but rather a milsurp pistol the CZ-82 in 9x18 Makrov it was and still is a great work of engineering with pretty much zero recoil, one of the safest guns ever issued with redundant safties extremally accurate and as your primary intention is target shooting..... its capable of double or single action use with the best double action pull of any gun, the ergonomics are simply amazing and since ya can get one for around $220 leaves ya the extra $$ for ammo or that .22 pistol

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Czech_CZ-82_9x18_Pistol.html

whenever I put a couple of these out they instantly become the most shot gun of the day by veteran shooters and ESPECIALLY those who we are teaching to shoot for the first time, all steel construction with the Czech old world quality machining etc.... I have yet to find a shooter these guns did not just fit perfectly regardless of big hands or small femal hands they just seem to refit themselves to each shooter, the ammo runs about $6 per box generally
 
Matt Welcome to THR & the world of firearms. For a first gun I'd get and did get a Glock 19. They are not expensive, are small enough to be concealed, are Reliable Accurate and practically indestructible. The 9mm round has little recoil and the ammo is readily available and not as expensive as other calibers. Every polymer gun emmulates the glock so you might as well get the one the're all trying to be. I would get one with night sights and you should expect to pay between $500-550 for one.
 
for defence i would NOTget a 1911,and would opt for a piont and shoot like glock or my fav XD.there both really good guns for a really good price but the XD is the chioce for me.best bet is to find a range/dealer that lets you try before you buy or rents.it'a heck a lot cheaper then getting a gun that you like at the counter then dont like it after a few hundred rounds through it.

ps. XD has a lifetime warranty
 
I'm not sure you're going to find long-term satisfaction with something you picked out in a hurry. Why let the state's permit process rush your decision? If you haven't found what you like and have to re-apply for another permit, so what, just do that.

I'm not aware of any law in NJ that prohibits rentals by gun shops set up to do that. You just might not know of any.


I'd make a good effort to find out where you can go try out some things first. I know for a fact Delaware has a shop like this close to the NJ border.

Go to your local shop and ask what other shops do this. Don't ask just the salespeople because they might not want to send your business to another shop; start up conversations with the customers and ask them.

Also, look in your local private gun clubs. They won't rent you anything, but see if you can go out and join. You'll want a place to shoot this gun you get anyway, right? Go join now. Go out to a meeting there and form a relationship with some of the members. Perhaps go to an IDPA match. I bet you'll find a few folks there willing to educate you, and maybe even let you try what they have.

matt-s said: So, finally, my questions:

A. Given how hard it is to try before you buy in NJ, how do I go about narrowing this down?
B. How do I select the right variant to match my interests? I find this especially confusing with the Sig product line, never mind 1911's!!!
C. Given my requirements (esp #5) am I missing something here?
Click to expand...

If you don't have a relationship with someone who knows about guns, you're going to have to get creative about finding some help. Its impossible for us to pick out something you're going to like; that's an individual decision. Consider the time and effort spent educating yourself as an investment that will pay back dividends not only in your first purchase, but over a lifetime.
 
You know, reading the post that got submitted as I was typing out my response . . . matt - it ought to give you an idea just how much you want to listen to opinions on the internet. I swear some folks don't even take the time to read the original post, let alone the ones after it, before typing up their advice.


You don't know who we are, our experience level, even our age. I could be a twelve year old whose breadth of shooting experience is video games, or a novice who just bought my first gun last week. Just like anything else in life, you're going to have to educate yourself about what's out there and make the decision based on what's best for you, not what I or someone else likes.
 
Bullfrog, ya just beat me to the exact same thought with your last post ;) It never ceases to amaze me sometimes I wonder if such people are simply copy and pasting the same "advice" to any thread with "newbie" in the title without ever reading the thread itself......
 
I'll suggest going to the local shops and seeing what fits in your hand, feels best. you may find that one you think you like feels terrible, has some annoying.....ect. If you cant actually shoot the gun, it's the closest you'll get to trying it out.

A coworker recently was all set on a XD45 untill he actually held one. He didn't like the feel of the grip "serrations" he ended up with a sig 220 instead.
 
Huh - I see were several of you are coming from. Bullfrog's post was helpful, and I am sure very true. I am also probably not trying hard enough to find some "hands-on" time.

I did reach out to a local club earlier this week - I have not received a response yet. I'll try again in a few days if no answer. I think that should open up a world of help.

You are right - my local circle of friends are not owners (let alone comfortable with the idea of owning) firearms. So I am starting from scratch. This is what makes the NJ permitting process a little sticky for me. Each time you go through it, you need to find two people to write recommendation letters. I am trying to not exhaust the patience of my two open-minded references. They are on round 2 now! :)
 
Everybody Needs A G19! :D

Seriously, look at Glock models 17 & 19. Whichever fits your hand better, these are excellent first handguns, and either will serve you very well!

Incredibly reliable! Surprisingly simple! Tough and accurate! Glocks are modern marvels of engineering--the guns so many were frantic to copy and emulate! Models 17 & 19 dominate the 9 mm category.

We've currently got three Glocks--models G17, G19 & G21. All have been dependable, trouble-free handguns, with thousands of rounds on each one. The newest, my G17, has given me better than 7500 shots without one hiccup! This is typical of Glock.

I like the low center of gravity (low bore axis) of Glocks in my hand. The heavy slides eat up recoil, and follow-up shots are easy.

Glocks are a breeze to field strip and maintain, maintenance is a non-issue!

With 9 mm being every bit as much fun to shoot as .45 ACP, I'd recommend you stay with that caliber. My G17 paid for itself in one year on ammo costs (9 mm Vs. .45) alone!

My G17 is my range gun. I added a Hogue grip and Dawson Precision FO/Adj Target Sights. I may add a 3.5 lb. trigger in the near future.

All the best accessories are readily available for Glock, as are service and replacement parts. This is not the case with other makes--like XD.

One thing... I too, thought to buy just one gun, but quickly ended up with three, and a planned fourth! A G17 or G19 is a must-have in any collection.

CZ, Sig, FN, are all great handguns, but do give Glock a hard look, and if possible, a test shoot, before deciding!

--Ray
 
BullfrogKen,

If my post was the one directly before yours, my guess the one you meant when you said:

that got submitted as I was typing out my response
Click to expand...
.

I would be highly offended. That post was right on the money toward this thread, though possibly not worded as well as your own eloquent piece of firearms selection expertise, but still right on the money for this thread.

You will note in the original post, that while Matt says he is not interested in Home Defense, he does state that he would like to become involved in defensive shooting. Did you mss that, there was a strong indication of it if you read everything he said, albeit probably not intentional on his part maybe through ignorance of the meaning of a term he used. Read it again, and read about his hope to shoot IDPA. My guess is you may have missed that. Maybe you know what those initials stand for, and maybe Matt does not, but I am sure someone realizes that they imply use of a pistol toward defense! After all they stand for International Defensive Pistol Association. The poster imediately prior to your post also suggested that Matt go to a range where he can rent a gun. Hmm, sounds like good advice to me. It would certainly help Matt a lot in making his choice; and even you felt it was good enough advice to give to Matt. So why the jab at the post, and why the reference to 12 year olds.

By the way, please answer me here in this thread, without suddenly taking the moderator role. You brought up the side topic here in this thread; and my feeling is that you owe someone an explanation and maybe even an apology here in ths thread. High Road indeed!

All the best,
Glenn B
 
he is referring to my post where I made a little joke based on his post about he cant decide what to get based off of other people(something like that)so it was deleted,and I got a (hasty as I call it) warning email,and a comment about childish behavior.I guess I'm not allowed to make jokes!
 
Then I guess I owe an apology to BullfrogKen, and I offer it sincerely since I was wrong about to which post he referred.

As for the jokes on the High Road, yeah I think tyou can make jokes if they are High Road quality, and that is understandably sujective to ethe feelings of the mods.

Thanks for the heads up. I hate making a jerk out of myself, but I like to know when I do so, and then at least be able to say sorry.

All the best,
Glenn B.
 
lol..one jerk is better than two.I guess I will apologize here also if I offend anyone by my post.better me then you(Glen Bartley)is what they say,right?
 
Glenn,

My comments were not aimed at you.


I see responses posted all the time that don't appear to take into account what the original poster asked. I really don't want to have matt's question interrupted with a discussion over whether my comments as a moderator were appropriate. Even though I act in a role that tries to keep the board's discussions free from insults and brand-war fights, I still like to participate.

I have made that comment before as a member. I don't feel like I need to cease the message to "take an extra minute to read through the posts" just because I was asked to work on Staff.


As I read through the posts, I noticed a few folks talking about concealed carry and defensive pistol choices when matt made it clear several times he was looking for a "range-only gun", and had no intentions at all to carry it because he couldn't. "Maybe" I'll shoot IDPA someday doesn't mean "help me choose an IDPA legal pistol I can still shoot at the range". While the two are not mutually exclusive, there are great range guns that are not IDPA legal. And if he's not interested in an "IDPA legal gun", his choices are wide open.


Why the references to twelve year olds and novice shooters? Because we see them here on THR offering advice. Obviously we don't know who sits on the other end of the keyboard and the quality of the advice they have to offer. It's easier to guage face to face, but even then it's still not foolproof to rely on someone else to know what's right for us. I'm not going to apologize for stating the obvious. Some of the advice started out answering a question matt stated several times he didn't want answers for.


If you feel I stepped over the line, and someone deserves an apology, I encourage you to ask another Staff member to look into it.


strickj, I'm not going to discuss publicly those comments of yours I had to delete.
 
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