Another range day with the .54 T/C Hawken - still mediocre

[Daizee]

Hi Folks,

I finally got back out to the range with the .54 smoke pole, and this time at a range with targets out to 200yds. I set up at 75yds, 50 being the furthest I'd show with the rifle so far.

The goal is accuracy for deer season, and I'm underwhelmed, but don't have something specific to blame it on.

I shot from the bench, using loose FFG Triple-7.
Projectiles: 230gr LRN .452's w/ red MMP sabots
.530 round ball with purchased pre-oiled patches (only 2 shots)

Targets were 50ft smallbore pistol targets, and I used a 6-o'clock hold, as much as I could claim to see so precisely at that range with round-topped open sights.

The first shot cut the bottom of the black at 5-o'clock. This seemed just about perfect to me. POA=POI. Things went downhill from there...

Every shot was on paper, but with like an 8" spread. There are what you could call groups if you discount a good number of disturbing fliers.

I changed my loading procedure slightly to improve ignition and consistency of friction in the bore. The procedure now stands as:

T/C Hawken .54, 1:48 twist
--------------------------
* Loading process:
1) snap cap on empty chamber
2) load powder
3) load projectile
4) cap & fire
5) blow thru tube on nipple
6) swab bore: dry, butter, dry, dry (2 actual patches, 2 sides each for 4 passes total)


One thing that's troubling me is I don't know if the fliers are me or the rifle/load. It's a big boom, hard butt plate, and I know it makes me jump. However, when using the bag and bench, I think I'm steadier than 8" at 75yds, and don't think I'm flinching that badly. Also, it would be the open sights. But I've shot nearly that well with a 6" revolver w/ open sights at 50yds, standing up (not *every* time...).

With the compromise rifling twist, my intuition says that round balls should be loaded light (60gr, smallest on my measure), and the sabots should be loaded hotter to get more RPM. I went up to 90gr. before running out of caps. Should I go higher?? The standard rifling twist for a .45acp is 1:16, much like a .22LR (and similarly proportioned bullets). Should I try the stash of 200gr Hornady XTP's? They might like the slower twist, and would probably be devastating on deer.

How about starting from scratch with a new powder?

BTW, the gun used to gum up and become unreliable around shot #5 or so. Fine for hunting, but inconvenient at the range. I started snapping an extra cap before loading each time to make sure things were clear, figuring my swabbing was pushing crud down around the flash hole. That worked pretty well until the end when I ran out of caps and had to pull the ball on a stubborn load.... I fired a total of maybe a dozen rounds. It's hard to learn anything when shooting so slowly and in such small quantities at a time.

I might have a chance to do more load development before deer season, but if not it looks like my max range with this gun is 75yds for now. :-(
At least I'm in New England and amn't likely to get longer opportunities.


-Daizee

 

[Ratdog68]

Hmmm... my .54 Renegade would be quite similar to your Hawken (mechincally speaking). Mine really likes 75gr of 777 in ffg with a patched round ball. Sounds like you have your routine down well. Have you checked the bore for any problems/fouling? It should definately be shootin' tighter than that.

 

[Daizee]

Hi Ratdog,

No I haven't checked for fouling in any real way. I swab between shots and see things get cleaner, but not perfect. The fouling on the patches between each shot seems consistent to me, and friction in the bore is also fairly steady. If the last patch pass before loading has butter, everything slides in easier, but the first time I did that I got a big flier, so standardized my procedure on the above.

The PRB's intrigue me, but I ran out of caps and light after only shooting two this evening. They were were good for elevation, but about 6" apart left-to-right with the 60gr load.

I'd be happy with 4-MOA from this gun. That would put me at max-deer-spread right around the max practical range of the gun, ballistically speaking (and probably beyond my ability with those sights at that range anyway).

-Daizee

 

[Chawbaccer]

I imagine you have 1/48 rifling, kind of slow for a sabot. Try and get some TC Maxiballs, they were designed for your gun.
Another thing, I think 200 yards is about twice as far as I am comfortable trying for a deer with my .50.

 

[Ratdog68]

Daizee? Did the spread widen as you continued to shoot? In other words... did they start out tighter initially? I'm wondering if the sabots were gooing up in the barrel... and if it started to get some lead fouling mixed in with it too.

You mentioned that the loads and the steel plate contribute to making you jump. Have you ruled out that it's not just that you're anticipating the recoil and moving the gun?

Also... gotta agree with Chawbaccer... m'be stick with the PRB's and the Minnie Balls for your gun and see if the groups don't tighten up a bit.

 

[arcticap]

I think that it's worth trying out real black powder and even Pyrodex for shooting round balls from TC sidelock rifles.
Some rifles just won't shoot well with 777.
IMO more TC sidelocks shoot round balls better with black powder than anything else.
Other suggestions are to try wads under the PRB's or thicker patches to see if either helps at all.
Some guns are not able to shoot well past 60-75 yards except with a very specific load (especially with the TC bead sight).
That's why Green Mountain is famous for their super accurate after market barrels which have deep cut rifling.
Make some incremental changes and try the different powders first and see what happens.

 

[Daizee]

No I'm not sure that it's not me. That's part of what's frustrating me. :-(

Call me stubborn, but I flat out refuse to shoot the maxi-balls. I won't shoot any of the $1-per-round bullets that don't even include powder, primer, or cartridge. The I'm-getting-screwed feeling would leave such a bad taste that I'd just go out for rabbits with my .22 instead.

I don't THINK there's a plastic goo problem. There's never been evidence of it in my cleaning residue, but it might be a good idea to put a good nasty solvent in there once, and then to clean it out really well the traditional way.

The groups were all over the place the whole time. I'd actually be happy with a tight 3-to-four shot group and then degraded performance after that. I don't expect to shoot more than one or two a day in the field.

Arcticap, I'll try some Goex or other BP next.
Did you hear me booming this evening? I was right smack on the eastern CT border.

-Daizee

 

[bigbadgun]

If you are not sure that if you moving is the problem try shooting 50 to 75 yards and practice so you dont move so much. Muzzle control might be the issue. At 50 to 75 yards
if you are still getting the wide spread groups. Try changing powder or possibly increase the load in increments of 5 grains until your groups tighten up. You already know the rifle is gonna jump and its gonna punch you in the shoulder. Maybe try a padded shoulder or a rubber butt plate. I hope this helps.

 

[eastbank]

any chance you could borrow an other rifle or shoot a friends rifle? that may show if it,s you or the rifle. eastbank.

 

[sundance44s]

777 and sabots work in inlines ....maxie lead bullets and Goex or Pyrodex work in T/C Hawkens and other side locks .
After all your quest is it kill a deer right .

 

[Chawbaccer]

I only have a mold for .50 maxiballs or I would make you a few just for the shipping charges.
I have priced sabots and they are not the cheapest projectile.

 

[madcratebuilder]

First recommendation is to use some Pryodex "RS" it's more forgiving than triple 7. I think your loads are a bit light for a .54. My best RB load in my TC .50 is 90grs with a .490 rb and .015 patch. Get some maxi-balls, your TC should shoot those great.

 

[hushnel]

I was at the range yesterday sighting in my .54 Renegade for a Tenn. hunt coming up. I believe the Hawkins is primarily a traditional blackpowder rifle, I sold a right handed T/C Hawkins in .50 to a buddy. The previous time spent at the range he was trying all the modern loads, fancy sabots and Pyrodex pellets, and was having some trouble with grouping, he is a phenomenal shooter, so I stopped shooting to watch him, he is new to muzzle loading. I saw a huge flame coming out of the barrel, way too much blow by. I did a little research and found that modern hunting muzzle loaders are designed for sabot and have a shallower riffling. So, on my recommendation, he bought Goex black powder, I have always used FFFg, and .490 swaged round ball. Yesterday at 50 yards he was hitting less than 2” groups and then tried 3 shots at 100. One was off, he told me he flinched, and two in the same hole just a little to the right of dead center.

As for my old Renegade it has reached an age where it doesn’t see so great anymore and I had the gunsmith mount a scope for her. My groups are within 3” at 50 yards and about 1 ½” high of dead center. .530 swaged round ball, 100 grains of FFFg, 010 patch.

 

[Daizee]

What is the prevailing wisdom as to *why* Goex would work better in one type of barrel or another? What are the relevant differences in combustion properties between BP and 777?

I'm happy to experiment, but am not fond of magical explanations. If there are some understandable principles at work that would provide some guidance for my experiments, instead of shooting in the dark, so to speak. All you folks have given me some good data points to bound my "research".

Madcratebuilder, I suppose my charges might be low for a .54. It has a rather larger volume behind the projectile than a .50. This would presumably lead to lower pressures, and perhaps inadequate bore seal or rifling engagement, especially with thicker plastic sabots. I will step my charge up to 100gr next time. *wince* Maybe I can attach (glue?) some padding to the back of the butt plate.

Interestingly, these MMP sabots are *really* consistent in where they land. They're almost all right at 25 yards, showing rifling marks. They almost look reusable.

-Daizee

 

[Daizee]

I just Scotch-77'd a "recoil pad" over top of the brass butt plate.
Maybe that will help reduce the me-wobble. Boy, it sure does look like Bubba did it, but I swear that's not my name...
I figure there are enough solvents in my basement to clean it off should the aesthetics be just too horrible to stand.

-Daizee

 

[Ratdog68]

Well... you can try out the recoil pad. If you find you like it... then do a perm/proper anchoring to the butt and trim away so it looks good.

 

[arcticap]

What is the prevailing wisdom as to *why* Goex would work better in one type of barrel or another? What are the relevant differences in combustion properties between BP and 777?

I'm happy to experiment, but am not fond of magical explanations. If there are some understandable principles at work that would provide some guidance for my experiments, instead of shooting in the dark, so to speak. All you folks have given me some good data points to bound my "research".

The pressure curve for each powder is different which can affect the projectile's passage through the barrel and how it exits. The combustion rate can also affect barrel harmonics [such as vibrations and barrel whip] just like when shooting centerfire and rimfire rounds.

For instance, if the barrel channel is too tight and the barrel heats up then that can change how the barrel will shoot. Maybe the barrel will shoot better when it's cold and clean?

777 can sometimes have erratic performance if it's compressed too much, and the other powders can also be affected by how much compression is used when they're rammed.

So changing the powder and loads can alter not just the velocity but the barrel harmonics too, which in turn can affect accuracy.

It's mostly a matter of trial and error to see what if anything works better.
Just like trying a different bullet with the sabot will produce a different result.

 

[Daizee]

Thank you all for your kind advice. We have a winner:

Increase the powder charge!

Today's targets were much more encouraging. And I also collected a couple sabots from the range and compared them to previous ones. The difference? *Substantially* more flare in the skirt. They no longer look reusable.

Here we go...
Once again, this was 75 yards from the bench, open sights, 6-o'clock hold. All shots today were fired with the set trigger on both guns.
Today brought some ignition problems, but putting a little powder under the nipple cured it every time. I'd better blow that channel clean with canned air tonight while cleaning.

Target #1: 7 rounds, 4 within 1.5" c-t-c. The other three are likely me. The extreme spread on this target is 4.5". This is more like it. I was flinchy to be sure, and it usually takes me a little while to settle down. The first shot was in the top group, and then I wandered out and back.




Target 2: different gun: Cabela's .50 hawken carbine, 80gr plus 230gr LRN w/ sabots. The one flyer is a standing shot for kicks. The bench group is 3" c-t-c. This wasn't bad for such a short sight radius, but the nipples are too big for #11 caps (new nipples, too) and only ignite on the second strike. The first strike merely seats the cap all the way. That's a no-go for hunting, but with that problem solved, this little carbine will get the job done. I haven't tried 90gr in this gun yet, which might tighten things up, but I'm less concerned now that the .54 is on track.




Target 3: Back to the T/C .54. This is the same 100gr powder charge, but I loaded the sabot with 200gr Hornady XTP/HP's. This group is 1.75" c-t-c. Pretty sweet. I was calm in my head shooting this group, having finally reconciled myself to the recoil.



So That's the business.
I'll depress the sights one click while cleaning tonight and call it good.
The POI for both the 200gr and 230gr bullets is about as close as one could hope for.

Now I have to decide which bullet:

230gr Hardcast LRN: it will surely penetrate, but the shape is lousy for trauma. At these velocities, the hardness might not be so much of a problem as at pistol velocities. Any thoughts?

200gr Hornady XTP: These are .45acp bullets. The XTP's have a reputation for being overly tough for handguns, but I'm still probably over-driving them. They'd make a wicked close range neck shot. At 100-150yds they're probably within their design limits. I'm quite fond of them, tho. I dug a couple (I think) out of the dirt pile behind the target backer. They really turned themselves inside-out and shed parts. I'd like to know what they're clocking out of that long barrel...

Next time I order lead .45acp bullets I'll try to get a flat nose or HP in a medium hardness. Actually, I might have some slightly softer ones with the same shape/weight. Those should work nicely in both the smoke pole and my 1911. Clearly .45-Colt bullets are more appropriate for the muzzle-loader, but I'm trying to keep my components under control. It's too bad the only bullet mold I have is the same RN shape. (I don't cast yet)

-Daizee

 

[arcticap]

The point of impact for the 200 grain saboted XTP bullets and PRB's look to be pretty much the same which is good, as are the groups.
I agree with you that for some reason round nose bullets are just not as appealing to shoot from rifles as some of the other styles available.
Hornady also makes a 230 grain XTP pistol bullet, and your .54 may even be able to shoot some of the most popular 240 grain saboted bullets, including the TC Cheap Shot lead hollow points if you can find them to try.
They used to cost about $7 for 20 of them or even less when on sale.
I like to look for open partial boxes of old bullets at gunshows.
Just buy light to mid-weight bullets when you can find a good deal on them.

 

[Daizee]

I've had lots of luck reloading Hornady pistol bullets in .357 and .45acp. They just got too expensive to shoot at paper after awhile. Shooting them at deer would be a much better use. I dunno if the 200gr is too light or too lightly constructed. I mean.... a 200gr bullet impacting at probably 1400fps... That's nothing to sneeze at, but if it's too lightly constructed for that impact velocity, then it's not a great idea.
It's a bit late in the season to be stocking up on various new bullets.

-Daizee

 

[m75rlg]

"but the nipples are too big for #11 caps (new nipples, too) and only ignite on the second strike. The first strike merely seats the cap all the way."

I like the cap to fight tightly on the nipple for hunting. Never had any water infiltrate, even during rain.

After placing the cap on the nipple, point the rifle at a safe backstop/direction and lower the hammer onto the cap. Then with your thumb, press the cap down until it bottoms out. She will then go on first strike.

If my caps will go on without using this method, I'll drop the hammer on an unloaded, unprimed nipple a couple of times. That flares the mouth enough to create the tight fit. It it starts deforming the cap when seated, a couple of light strokes with a fine file will refit it.

P.S. I purchased two 20 round boxes of .50 maxiballs for less than $10 locally last week. I saw some listed in a catalog (but can't rmemeber where, maybe Midway) for right at $10 also.

 

[mykeal]

Which No. 11's? They're not the same size. Remingtons are significantly shorter than CCI's. If you're using CCI's it may be that the opening diameter is satisfied before the top settles on the top of the nipple. The shorter Remingtons would solve that.

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

For my brother's Renegade 54, it's 430 gr TC Maxiball and 120 gr Goex ffg.
It reliably hits a pie plates at 200 yards with a 2.5 ft hold over.
Mt Renegade 54 is new to me. It has a Green mountain 33" barrel. I've tried Lee hollow based mini 80 Gr Goex ffg, and 430 gr Maxiballs, 100 gr 777 ffg.
I took it white tail hunting (just got back) saw a few running away. Never pulled the trigger. Hit the target well enough when discharging for cleaning.
I know you don't care about my GM barreled Renegade, but my brother's T/C barreled Renegade always shot best with Maxi-balls. You should keep an eye out for a mold and make your own. I got one at the Northwest Mountainman Trade Show for $20.
They come in two weights; 430 gr and 530 gr.
My 50 cal shootin' friends tried sabots, couldn't get them to work accurately.
I have not tried them yet. Probably won't. Still have to try Lee REAL, Hornady Great Plains, Buffalo Ball-ette. etc.
I did hit a skeet (on the ground) at 100 yards with a 444 gr lead Powerbelt, but the next one stuck in the bore at the counterbore, had to pull it with a screw. Kinda soured me on Powerbelts. Perhaps I'll try a wool overpowder felt wad with bore butter in it under any full caliber slug, and see if that does the job the powerbelt claims.

 

[fyrfyter43]

Rather than throwing so much money at those d@mn sabots, you should give the PRB a fair shot. Find a load that gives good accuracy (you should be able to do much better than what you're getting with the sabots), and you'll be able to consistently take deer out to 100 yards. Because a round ball is pure lead, it typically retains all its weight, and it flattens out to about 1.5 times its original size. It's much cheaper to shoot, and recoil will be much lighter. Not to mention, you won't be leaving all that plastic crap all over the range.

A patched round ball has been sufficient for the biggest game on the planet for hundreds of years.

 

[hushnel]

This data is from hunting.about.com

Renegade & Hawken, 50 caliber
Round ball loads (.490", 175 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1357 FPS - 761 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1434 FPS - 850 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1643 FPS - 1115 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1838 FPS - 1396 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1950 FPS - 1571 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2052 FPS - 1739 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2135 FPS - 1883 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (370 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1271 FPS - 1328 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1344 FPS - 1484 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1418 FPS - 1652 ft.lbs

Renegade & Hawken, 54 caliber
Round ball loads (.530", 230 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 815 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1469 FPS - 1102 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1654 FPS - 1397 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1761 FPS - 1584 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1855 FPS - 1758 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1931 FPS - 1905 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1983 FPS - 2009 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (430 grains):
90 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 1523 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1345 FPS - 1728 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1428 FPS - 1948 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1499 FPS - 2146 ft.lbs