Another screwball question...

[tweakkkk]

- Need a varmint rifle. Was thinking .243 because I like the caliber and if I ever wanted to hunt deer with something besides a front bumper it would be there.

- But I wonder if a .223 wouldn't be more useful to me - people load them with just a primer and pellet and knock down nuisance birds. Velocity is usually so-so.

- Then I thought, wouldn't it make sense to pack a .223 case with a hard material (epoxy it seems, instead of clay) to reduce the volume, and push the pellet faster?

- That would make the rifle a lot more useful to me, and then maybe I could justify spending a bit more on it, get a CZ or something rather than a Stevens, since it would replace my .22lr and air rifles.


Thanks for any tips here. Either way, I'm still looking forward to picking up one rifle or another.

 

[bullseye308]

I think the clay might be hard on the barrel(Abrasive?). Buy a 223 and a single shot 22(for pests).

ETA: I don't think the clay would hold up getting out of the barrel either.

 

[GaryL]

Don't take any risks messing around with trying to download the 223. It is possible for the action to cycle with a bullet stuck in the barrel, and if you followup with a full power load, at a minimum, the rifle is toast.

Get a 22 rifle as suggested, a serviceable one can be had for $100. Feed it Super Colibri if you want to use it as a quiet pellet gun.

 

[aliveisalive]

the hogdgon database has a light load in .223 using tightgroup powder... let me look it up

55 GR. HDY FMJ Hodgdon Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP

 

[tweakkkk]

Maybe I should clarify... I'm talking about using the clay to FILL the cartridge to reduce its volume, so when the primer goes off, the gases are directed straight to the pellet instead expanding in the case body and slowing down... otherwise you have to drill out flash holes and use magnum and shotgun primers, and still get marginal results.

Illustration, forgive the crudeness:



If it worked, it would effectively cut the case volume down to 1/3 or 1/4 normal capacity... and as we all know, same charge in a smaller case capacity = higher pressure = faster bullet.


Edit: I have a 22lr, and I've used the colibris. They're crap for accuracy and don't expand on birds like a pellet. A good hunting pellet has the same weight but is a lot more stable. I wouldn't worry about a pellet getting stuck in the bore, if this works it would accelerate the pellet plenty, pellets are slightly underbore for a .224, and are very easy to knock out with a dowel. Of course when testing any low-power load you should alway check that the round left, this would be in a bolt gun so pop the bolt out, look down the bore and you're good to go.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Don't take this as condoning your idea, but you might consider epoxy instead of clay. Clay will crumble and won't be good for the barrel. Epoxy won't crumble and can be drilled.

There used to be a company that turned cartridge cases from solid brass and drilled them for using pellet gun pellets and primers. They went out of business and I don't know how well the idea worked.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[bang_bang]

What would the issue be of pouring lead into the casing (with the spent primer in place, or some type of stopper and then drilling a hole?

Would the lead melt from the primer? Possibly hurt the gun?

 

[tweakkkk]

Yeah that was convert-a-pell... I was under the impression that it was just a normal case modified to take a 209 primer, but weren't filled to bring the volume down. What little info on them I found suggested moderate velocities.

Thanks for the tip on the epoxy, clay was just my first option since I have plenty on hand. Other thermo-form plastics and tin were backup strategies.

Edit: I considered lead or tin but wasn't sure if it was necessary. On the extreme end I was thinking about using aluminum or steel cases from Wolf ammo or the like and filling with brass melted with an acetylene torch.

The downside to lead of course would be lead particles and health risks, and with lead or another metal is that the added weight might be hard on extractors.

 

[rogn]

A good model 48 RWS pellet gun will do all those things you want to do and will likely avoid saftey Q. If there is any question about "firearms" use in your ituation the air power pretty much nullifies that. Plus you can safely use it indoors. Good excuse for another type of gun too. A new face on the block is the Benjamin precharged-35 shots before recharge w/ good power too

 

[jjohnson]

Convert-a-pell

Well, I've seen ads for these before - using steel rod and turning it on a lathe to make it the same outside dimensions as a cartridge (like .223) and drilling a hole through the center to "muzzle load" a pellet into it and power it with a primer. Some of these actually have rifling (for revolvers or shotguns) so you wind up with something like a .22 derringer in a steel case. They work - but not so well as to make them popular at all.

They survive more as novelties than anything else. I'm sure they're patented.
No, never heard of trying clay. I think your idea may have theoretical technical merit, but in execution, similar attempts have never caught on, and with good reason - performance.

The advice to buy a .22 for your 'lower power requirement' needs is sound. Buying a low cost .22 to add to your collection will give you a lot more flexibility than a chamber insert ever will.

 

[Walkalong]

I like the epoxy idea instead of clay.

 

[tweakkkk]

Yeah it was a good one. Some of those epoxies are REALLY tough too, should last quite a while.


Actually... do you think epoxy would hold up to a grain or two (maybe half a grain in .22 hornet) of bullseye or titegroup? Subsonic loads for dummies?


The advice to buy a .22 for your 'lower power requirement' needs is sound. Buying a low cost .22 to add to your collection will give you a lot more flexibility than a chamber insert ever will.

Have two 1000fps air rifles. Have a 22lr. Not the point.

Just because something isn't "kosher practice" or popular doesn't mean it is effective or can't be made effective. Why on earth would I spend $300+ on an RWS that farts pellets at 75 feet when for the same price I can get a rifle that can do the same thing and then toast varmints at 400 yards just as easy?

 

[tweakkkk]

I've got it. J-B Weld. J-B weld would stand up to a 40 megaton nuke. Fill a case with that and you could probably use any charge you want.

The high-temp epoxy putty for car repairs and mufflers would probably be cheaper, and might hold up to abuse, but I can't see any way this WOULDN'T work with J-B weld.

 

[rcmodel]

There is absolutely no need to pack the case with Clay, Epoxy, or Silly-Putty.

I was killing pigeons off the barn roof with a 22-250 and a primer, and .22 pellet about 40 years ago.
If you want, you can add a grain of Bullseye pistol powder.

But you quickly will reach a velocity where it will blow the center out an air rifle pellet and stick it in the bore, or lead the barrel badly.

If it works in a 22-250 case without Silly-Putty, it should certainly work in a .223 case without Silly-Putty!

rc

 

[jerkface11]

You have a .22lr and you have a pellet gun. Yet for some reason you want a .223 to duplicate their ballistics?

 

[tweakkkk]

There is absolutely no need to pack the case with Clay, Epoxy, or Silly-Putty.

I was killing pigeons off the barn roof with a 22-250 and a primer, and .22 pellet about 40 years ago.
If you want, you can add a grain of Bullseye pistol powder.

But you quickly will reach a velocity where it will blow the center out an air rifle pellet and stick it in the bore, or lead the barrel badly.

I ran into that problem firing pellets with ramset blanks out of a .22lr, but isn't that why the good lord invented cylindrical and heavy-weight pellets? There are pellets weighing up to mid-30 grainers.

I don't doubt it's not necessary to reduce the case volume. It's more a question of can it be done?


Yes I have the air rifles and .22lr and the point is not to duplicate their ballistics, its about the fun factor of a .22 CF bore. I'll sell off my two Gammos and put the .22lr away in a closet if I can get a .223 to do all their work. Pellet rifles are touchy about temperature and other factors, .22lr is dirty, isn't that cheap anymore, and you still can't point it at treetops.

Why keep four guns oiled, fed, and sighted in if I can make do with one? If a .223 can be used here there, and everywhere I'll spend a heck of a lot more on it, get a nice stock, a set trigger... if all I'm going to use the rifle for is to zap varmints once a month I'll go buy a cheap Stevens in .243 and be done with it.

 

[Walkalong]

I used to shoot 40 gr bullets in .22 Hornet & .223 cases using 700X. It approximated .22 Mag rounds. Quite and lethal on squirrels. Good trigger practice with two favorite firearms.

 

[tweakkkk]

That's IMR 700-X? Is that along the same lines as Alliant's Unique? I may actually have some Unique at my disposal, if it's similar.

How sensitive is it to case position?

 

[redneck2]

There are pellets weighing up to mid-30 grainers.

Where do you get 30 grain pellets? That would make this whole deal feasible.

See...this whole deal sounds pretty cool to me. You could use a real live rifle and whack varmints with a minimum of noise. 30 grains would give enough pop to make it work.

I had some Marine-Tex, which I suspect is much like J-B Weld. It's a 2-part epoxy that is grey when mixed and dried. Tough as nails and sticks to anything. A grain or two of real fast powder should make enough power. Run it thru a chrono to check the power level.

 

[tweakkkk]

In .22 cal the "normal" pellets run up to around 22gr, like the Beeman Kodiak. Those you can usually get at Bass Pro or Cabela's. But for high-powered pneumatic air rifles, you can order pellets like this:



32 grains in .22 cal... they have them in .25 cal as well, weighing 43gr there.
Pyrmaidair.com is a good place for those. There is one company making 60gr .25 pellets but they're pricey enough that you might as well use bullets.

The .25 cal does kinda intrigue me as well. I wonder about doing the same thing with a .257 roberts or .25-06. I also wondered about using a bullet sizer to squeeze .25 cal pellets down to .243 diameter.

For a hard-core varminter, .20 cal pellets should work in a .204 ruger case, and the velocity there should be exceptional.


Somebody wanna try these 77gr in their handgun?

 

[Walkalong]

That's IMR 700-X? Is that along the same lines as Alliant's Unique

Yes. IMR 700X. No, more similar to American Select, Solo 1000. It's a little position sensitive, but not bad. Most of my shots were into the tree tops, so is was not a big concern, the powder naturally fell back against the primer.

Blue Dot was a failed experiment in the .22 Hornet. SEVERELY position sensitive.

Unique may work, I just have not tried it.

 

[AgentAdam]

One time i took a .22lr stinger case,gave it a double charge, and inserted it into my Cricket youth bolt action right behind a .22cal pellet. I'm guessing around 22 grains. I then shot a water bottle from about 2 feet that vaporized. Any body want to guess the velocity? .17hmr-ish? I'm sure none of my post will ever be taken seriously after this.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. AKA DO NOT DO THIS......

I thought allot of people rave about Blue-Dot in reduced .223 loads. Isn't that the powder that causes excessive gas cutting in revolvers? I would be afraid to burn my throat out.

Who's to say an undersized,uber soft, .22cal pellet in a .223, shot with a primer will be any more accurate than a Super Colibri? I guess they will form to the bore and act like a hollow based wad cutter but the barrel twist will be way off. Also a magnum or shotshell primer is allot more powerfull than a rimfire and might push the bullet so fast you get a sonic crack.

I would just pay for a can and use subsonics. Subsonics alone,like the weaker RemSubSon and Aguila SE, in a 20"+ barrel are more quiet than a pellet gun that goes sonic.

 

[tweakkkk]

Who's to say an undersized,uber soft, .22cal pellet in a .223, shot with a primer will be any more accurate than a Super Colibri? ... Also a magnum or shotshell primer is allot more powerfull than a rimfire and might push the bullet so fast you get a sonic crack.

The bullets in the Colibris are very short and blunt, not aerodynamic at all, the amount of priming in the cases is inconsistent, and like most .22lr ammo, the bullets are poorly formed. A pellet is primarily drag-stabilized, and corrects itself in flight. I've loaded pellets backwards and had them strike facing forward.

Low noise isn't my goal, but AFAIK pellets fired by primers are usually subsonic, and I can always adjust primer types and pellet weights to get what works best.

Where this does become useful is that you can point it into the treetops and not worry about a high-SD bullet striking property, people, or livestock a mile away. Squirrels can't scamper up a tree to safety, and birds are fair game on the ground, on fence posts, and in the treetops. I don't care about the noise so much, so I'd love to see a 22gr hollow point pellet with 2-3gr of bullseye behind it turning pigeons into puffs of feather.

 

[AgentAdam]

I would go with the .223rem necked down to .17. The .17rem with a reduced load. After those bullets hit something there isn't much left of the bullet or the pest. You could load 17,20,and 25 grain slugs in FMJ,HP,SP and Balistic Tip V-max any were from 1000fps-4300fps. Kinda like a ballistic tipped jacketed pellet gun, .17mach2,.17HMR,and .17 Rem Fireball all in one. You probably don't want to buy a new rifle though.

 

[Remo-99]

tweakkkk,
1 to 1.5 grs of bullseye is plenty enough in a 223rem case, much more and it tends deform the soft lead pellet.
With most primer powered ammo, the case volume acts as a pressure storage, that powers the pellet down the barrel length, rather than just rely on the sudden wack of the primer ignition.

I've used the shotgun primer method, but I find I get better results with a case and regular primer, around 1gr of fast burning flake powder, and airgun pellet.

Also done the same in 243win using a small buckshot pellet, for close range pest control.