Another thought on 'home defense'

[Bryan_Willman]

Maybe this has been said, but I've not seen it.

In selecting a weapon for home defense, people tend to talk/think about:
a. ease of use in a crises
b. ability to STOP the attacker (or drive them off)
c. minimize collateral damage - usually focused on penetration

All excellent considerations.

I'd like to suggest thinking about c. in a different way. A quick visit to the boxotruth, as well as any number of references, will show that any round which is a good stopper will also tend to be a good penetrator.

But another thing to consider is what I'll call the "clear miss range". Illustration:

Goblin is charging you full speed with a machete and loudly asserting he'll cut your head off, after battering your door in with his head. So, you shoot him.

If you miss clean with, say, a .300win mag, the bullet will be a terrible hazard to anybody within what, 1000 yards? (Setting off reactive targets at boomershoot at 700yards somewhat *up hill* was easy for .300wsm, and the elevation on the gun was quite low...)

Same clean miss with, say, a 12ga slug, the bullet is still a terrible hazard, but to a much shorter range (200 yards, say? 100 yards realistically?) That's still a long long way. But much shorter.

The area affected grows with the square of the distance. Think about how many people you'd rather not shoot by accident live within 200 yards (or whatever) versus 1000 yards (say)

It's also worth considering realistic ranges - you hopefully aren't firing at 45degrees for maximum possible range, but rather aiming at the attacker.

And finally, as has been pointed out, it's the cartridge and its muzzle velocity that matter - so a PLR16 firing 5.56mm FMJs, while very short barrelled, will still have a zone of collateral damage a lot like an M4...

 

[mgkdrgn]

Same clean miss with, say, 12 ga #1 buckshot, likely won't leave your house. A solid hit with same will resolve your problem in all but the most extreme situations.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

How likely is a true "clean miss" in a home defense scenario though? Short of leaving an open window, most misses within a house are going to still encounter (at a minimum) a frame wall and some type of exterior siding. To use your .300 WSM as an example, if it normally has a window of 1,000 yards, what is its window after it has partially mushroomed on an intervening barrier and has a totally new (and ineffecient) ballistic coefficient?

What is the window on a 55gr FMJ if it breaks into multiple fragments on a brick veneer?

Even glass, especially laminated glass, can be very hard on bullets and fragment and otherwise reduce their ballistic efficiency. Given this, how likely is it that the true "clean miss" scenario will happen in your household defense?

 

[lebowski]

I think along the same lines ... most of these tests involved penetrating layers of drywall. I live alone, so I'm not worried about penetrating an interior wall. My house is concrete block.

Even though 12ga buck penetrates multiple layers of drywall, IMO it should be pretty safe to use in my situation. Given it's ballistic properties, it doesn't seem too likely to penetrate my concrete block wall, travel some distance outside my house, then penetrate a neighbors exterior wall. I also wouldn't be uncomfortable using .223 (assuming proper ammo selection). About the only thing I wouldn't use in my house would be slugs or a full sized rifle round.

 

[benEzra]

Same clean miss with, say, a 12ga slug, the bullet is still a terrible hazard, but to a much shorter range (200 yards, say? 100 yards realistically?) That's still a long long way. But much shorter.

Potentially more than that. A 12-gauge slug has an insane amount of momentum, and will penetrate some barriers that even .308 Winchester won't. And the slug won't stop the instant it touches the ground unless it lands in a soft plowed field or something; ricochet is a substantial possibility with a heavy, non-fragile projectile like that.

The other thing to consider is that a 55-grain .223 loses energy quickly, and if it has passed through any intervening barrier (even window glass) its fragility and subsequent deformation will make it lose energy even quicker. FWIW, I live in a brick house, so .223 or 7.62x39mm JHP's aren't exiting unless they exit through a window or a wood/masonite area, or through the ceiling.

It's also worth considering realistic ranges - you hopefully aren't firing at 45degrees for maximum possible range, but rather aiming at the attacker.

Quick physics point, the maximum range from a firearm is attained at an elevation around 30 degrees. 45 degrees would give you maximum elevation in a vacuum, but in air, drag changes things considerably.

 

[SHusky57]

how far would a 9mm or 45 go if fired level compared to buckshot, a slug, or a rifle round?

 

[TimM]

If you live in an apartment, duplex or joined townhouse all of this is just rhetoric.

 

[Dirty Bob]

You can minimize this by thinking in advance about where you'll set up your defense of you and your family and make a "backstop" with a bookcase, heavy furniture, etc. In my case, any shot travelling down the hallway will find a closed door, then a heavy dresser, then the wall, then the exterior brick. This may not stop the bullet with 100% certainty, but it will certainly deform it and slow it, limiting how far it can go.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[ghoster]

practice. center of chest shot wont go anywhere.

 

[SHusky57]

I agree DirtyBob - but Murphy's law is well.... Murphy's law.

 

[Lou McGopher]

Need plenty of knockdown power with little chance of injuring the neighbors should you miss?

Get a punch gun.

Other than that, I don't know if I would use anything bigger than a .22LR if I lived in an apartment building, unless the walls between units were cinder block. But that's part of the reason I will never live in an apartment building again.

 

[SpotlightRanger]

Goblin is charging you full speed with a machete and loudly asserting he'll cut your head off, after battering your door in with his head. So, you shoot him.

I am pretty sure if he battered in the door with is head we are very near the end of the fight.

If you miss clean with, say, a .300win mag, the bullet will be a terrible hazard to anybody within what, 1000 yards?

I don't think so. It would only pose a threat to people within a thousand yards that were in the path of the bullet with no cover in between them and the bullet. Stated that way it sounds a bit different does it not?

Same clean miss with, say, a 12ga slug, the bullet is still a terrible hazard, but to a much shorter range (200 yards, say? 100 yards realistically?)

I am guessing 150 meters under the same parameters as above.

The area affected grows with the square of the distance. Think about how many people you'd rather not shoot by accident live within 200 yards (or whatever) versus 1000 yards (say)

Again, only within the path of the bullet. The bullet path is very tiny, the space is quite vast.

And finally, as has been pointed out, it's the cartridge and its muzzle velocity that matter - so a PLR16 firing 5.56mm FMJs, while very short barrelled, will still have a zone of collateral damage a lot like an M4...

Maybe. My understanding of .223 FMJ bullets is that they break apart pretty easily if they encounter certain targets and material. This might limit range considerably.

 

[BCPerry]

Well

My 2 cents, I have my duty weapon on the night stand next to me. My wife has her G 27 next to her, and then there is the 12 guage with bird shot loaded next to the bed. Bird shot form a 12 guage at 20 feet ( typical room distance in most houses ) will stop anybody and isn't leaving the house.

I'd rather repair a wall hit with birdshot than look at my neighbors for the next umpteen years knowing I killed their child with a missed shot.

 

[KenWP]

With this thread one gun that would make sense would be a 44mg with those shot shells loaded in it. You give the bad guy his 12 feet and when he goes past that I would put money on it that a does of those pellets in the face would sort of take the bravery out of him fast and with a revolver you have 5 more shots left and at close range they are like a solid slug anyways. They make 22 shot shells also and at 12 feet they would sting a bit but even up close they wouldn't have as much effect as a solid bullet.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I have some pistols around the home in accessible but hidden places if need be and a 12 ga Mag 'Coach' gun loaded r/bbl hi-brass #6 and l/bbl 00 buck handy by bedstand light.
I keep my Marlin .45acp Camp loaded and hanging on wall hooks if I have to go outside, I'm off the pavement aways.

 

[esq_stu]

My 2 cents: The threat of a miss finding an innocent bystander declines rapidly with distance except in densely populated areas. I would not worry about a shotgun slug or ordinary rifle round (say, 5.56 NATO, 7.62x39) hitting an IB. I would focus on the optimum weapon/round to stop the threat. On that basis, you will do just fine with slugs or just about any normal military handgun or military round. Just find the one you are most effective with and stick with it.

 

[Bryan_Willman]

Some good points in this thread.

By the way, I personally favor 12ga 00buck and/or slug, depending on, well, circumstance.

But one reason is that I am more comfortable with a shotgun, and therefore believe I'll use it more effectively while startled. (Jumping out of bed in the middle of the night.)

So certainly, the argument that you should use whatever gun you are most likely to place a shot dead center at 3am while just awakened by the alarm, is a good argument.

Oh, and yes, the bullet is tiny and space is large - but I do live in a populated area so there are indeed a great many people to put at risk.

 

[TheFallGuy]

What about the use of frangible ammo? I live out in the sticks and alone so I don't need to worry about innocent bystanders. When I did live in suburbia, I loaded my Beretta with frangible rounds after seeing how they worked to avoid ricochets by falling apart. My thought was that if I miss, the round is likely to fall apart by time it exits the house or enters another one.

I would imagine that while it may not injure as much as a JHP, there would still be enough force from the 180 gr .40 S&W round to incapacitate a would be attacker. I don't know enough about frangible ammo and maybe somebody could clear this up for me and set me straight if I am wrong.

 

[Grey_Mana]

Any data on people being injured by home defense misses?
I've seen the newspaper stories about kids in the projects being shot through walls, during drive-bys. Anything else?

 

[mbt2001]

I agree with Bartholomew Roberts, the likelihood of a "clean miss" is exceedingly small. My advice is to review your home and work with the layout and develop shooting lanes. For instance:

When you come in my front door you have to walk in a few feet, take a left and then take a right to get to my bedroom door. We have put some book cases on the other side of the walls and other areas where I might likely miss and send a stray round down range so to speak.

 

[Kwanger]

I also agree regarding the clean miss scenario. Very little chance of it occurring. Certainly down here in Florida, where all the houses in your average neighborhood are concrete block, to do damage to someone in a neighboring house, I'd have to not only get through my house, but theirs also. Even if I shot through a window in my house chances are it'd hit the neighbors external wall as the nature of the community design is that you will not be looking directly into your neighbors window. I suppose out the front window, across the street, and into another front one would be worst case, but again unlikely, especially when you factor in glass deviation, for instance.

That said, you do need always to be aware of the backstop; it's a massive priority, and in an apartment or building with lesser walls, even more so.

 

[tactikel]

Last year a gangbanger in Chicago shot at a rival gangbanger on Michigan ave. with at .45 auto. According to the Tribune the bullet went 80 yards, penetrated the plate glass window of a hotel room, went thru the door of a closet in the room, out thru the backwall of the closet, across the rooms bedroom and lodged in the drywall 1 foot above the head of the rooms guest welcoming a young lass from Iowa to the windy city. The point being that even a low power load, penetrating a few flimsy barriers can cause terrible damage. IMHO a 12 ga with #4 buckshot is the safest, best HD combo.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I have Buckshot and slugs in my pump and HP in my 45.

Practice is the key to not missing.

 

[Guns and more]

I like the odds with a .45. Slow, large bullet with lots of knock down power, and not so much penetrating power. I'm still a fan of the .410 pump with a P/G and buckshot.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Let's not turn this into a hardware thread, folks. Strategies and tactics, remember...

lpl