Another "Your Papers Please" story.

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I figure a lot of the full auto stuff is for mindset. The carrier gets to have a gee whiz gun and the victim might consider himself undergunned.

I feel the shipping method of the bullet matters very little. From the kid's 22 to gramps and his single shot shotgun the important thing is getting the message sent.

Coming soon, the african safari/ home defense rifle. Due to the way laws are headed I figure as number of rounds get restricted the power of each round should go up.
 
Hmmmm...I could live with just single shot weapons, so long as my weapons are 200cm Hellbore cannons. :D

NOTE: Hellbore's are fictional weapons that fire 5 gram slugs of fusing Hydrogen/deutrium at .7 c, commonly mounted on space based naval vessels and BOLOs

edited for clarity of units
 
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Wa'll sure. 5 grams at .7c gives you something like 4740298705469860 ft lbs of energy.

Tons of penetration, but your targets are likely to vaporize.

Probably ought not to pop it off at close range.

hmm--forgot about the fusion aspect of the round. Energy estimate is probably a bit low.
 
And some wonder why the gubmint enacted NFA'34, 1986FOPA, and the 1994 Crime Bill.

A nice FAL carbine with a 40-round magazine would be real handy in such a situation. 9mm v .308.

Rick
 
I am a law abiding veteran that respects the very ungrateful and confusing work that law enforcement officers do.

With that said

Having been on the receiving end of a “no knock†(former room mate having been peddling weed before we kicked him out long time ago.) I have included for my home defense a Bull Terrier Lab mixed yard shark named “Teeth†(40lbs of loud, teeth and hell on four legs that’s bonded to my wife more than me) and reinforced door frames, security fire doors, and brace locks on all doorways coming into my home. Plus one to the master bedroom, I should have about 20 seconds to arm and repel borders. Having FAL fixings near hand and a 12ga shotty on rapid response, any "no knock" to my home will end badly for all. Most of the mods are for the safety of my wife and the protection of property in my home from two legged bottom feeders (nearest popo will get there in about 20 min). But if the popo actually, get the wrong address they will have a lot of explaining to do. You see, I named the privet street that I built my house on after my wife.
 
So.... do we have the right to shoot back on a no knock raid when we are not the intended target of such a raid? I'm sure it's happened before, what were the results in the legal system?
 
What leatherneck said. If they wanted you, your "commune" would be a "compound" and they would attack you with tanks, barry manilow, tear gas, burn your house down, and machine gun fleeing residents...and get off scott free.

atek3
 
Looks like we have a lot of folks just dying to take on superior numbers.

(Get it? ...dying...)

Or are some of you just looking for an excuse to try to kill some government types?

John
 
So.... do we have the right to shoot back on a no knock raid when we are not the intended target of such a raid? I'm sure it's happened before, what were the results in the legal system?
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You have the "right" to do as you darn well please.

However, if the home invader you drop the hammer on happens to have the consent of a judge, you're almost certainly going to die. If you don't, you can expect to never have to pay for food or board again in your life. Save your cigs for protection payments, though.

Just because you're being assaulted by armed intruders who have mistaken you for someone you aren't doesn't mean you can do a darn thing about it. And if you are fast enough to try, you're up sewage creek without a means of propulsion.

I don't have anything to worry about, though. When that first flashbang comes through my door, I'll likely not do more than reach over and hit snooze. I'll be lucky if I wake up on the way to the county lockup for questioning.

Of course ... if they mistake the alarm clock for a deadly weapon ...
 
Police officers / federal agents are supposed to (in theory, at least) announce themselves. Heck, if I were a cop executing a warrant like this, I'd be screaming POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT! every two seconds while sweeping the house... :) There have been several cases where the police have neglected to so announce themselves, and those who shot (at) them did not go to jail, if they lived. Like Donald Carlson of Poway. But the chances of dying are huge. If you have enough warning to arm yourself, you also have enough time to dial 911 and scream "I'm armed, anyone who comes through this door is dead!". As soon as the police identify themselves, though, shooting is no longer an option. Unfortunately, at that point, you're going to be roughed up a little, cuffed, and lose several hours at the least. But live through it and call a lawyer later.
 
But live through it and call a lawyer later.
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The truest revenge that one could exact on the JBTs is to sue them - both the department and the people involved as individuals - for violating your civil rights. Also, getting on TV (with your lawyer, and after prep as to what NOT to say) and bad-mouthing these arrogant lawbreakers will do wonders to cut their budget (or at least halt any increases). Maybe you can even get to testify in a Congressional or state hearing - that would certainly hurt the funding of the agency in question, and could even result in changes in the law (this is how the '86 FOPA got passed, which allowed us to transport guns interstate and to buy ammo without registering the purchase). That is victory over these morons - the other kind is a recipe for getting killed.

BTW, if you're successful in a lawsuit, just think of how many interesting toys you could buy with the proceeds!

Live to fight another day - and pick your battleground.
 
You guys are a trip. You read one part of a story, as told by the SUSPECTS who are not going to say "Yep, we're criminals and we were doing something we should not hav been or the police would not have raided our house"... When was the last time you saw someone that was being arrested say, "Yep, I'm guilty and I accept full responsability"???

You are hearing one side of the story and then calling all Feds JBTs..Great Logic. That is just about as bad as the Brady bunch reading about a guy that was killed with a gun and deciding that all gun owners must be criminals or that all guns are evil...

What ever happened to finding out the truth before you start assigning blame or threatening the lives of police officers. Really, I would expect more from adults!

On top of all that, they did not hit the wrong street address and theydidn't shoot anybody! If they had bad intel, I am sure that there will be a flurry of letters etc, but at the end of the day there was most likely a very good reason that they were there. The sweeping generalizations that I am seeing here would be no different than if I said that all non LEOs are a bunch of criminals that haven't been caught yet... I know that isn't true and I would expect that you guys know better than to think that LEOs are out there plotting on how they can come do a no knock warrant on your house just because they heard you have a new 10-22...
 
As soon as the police identify themselves, though, shooting is no longer an option.
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LoL. If I've done nothing wrong then there shouldn't be cops in my place. I'd have as much reason to believe that they aren't cops as they are.
 
The BATF executes drug warrants under the non-payment of the drug "tax stamp", IIRC.

FedDC, I hope you don't get frustrated with us all and quit the board, but most here agree the govenment is wwaaayyy out of bounds in alot of areas. No knock raids(regardless of the "no time to flush" or "officer saftey" reasons) ARE OUT OF BOUNDS, and this is just one area they are out of control in.


I do vaule your views, even if I don't agree, because you at least bring a different viewpoint that has been garnered from personal experience that most here lack, and can back up your statements with facts, not retoric. I'm not above learning from you.
 
One last comment on this:

While I still belive most LEOs are on freedoms side, and are genuinely good people, I know for a FACT that one local swat team was shut down because they hit the a wrong address on 2 different occasions. Why? I don't know, but it really doesn't matter does it? The fact is they did, period.

Had they hit my house in one of these cases, an officer would most likely be dead, I definitely would be dead, and many families(both mine and LEO) would be holding pieces of shattered lives.

Now ask yourselves: Is it worth it?

I think not.
 
The sweeping generalizations that I am seeing here would be no different than if I said that all non LEOs are a bunch of criminals that haven't been caught yet...
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Except that you can arrest us. And if we refuse arrest you can shoot us. Legally. I have respect for cops, and I have a friend who is a cop, but you guys have a lot of power. You are the tip of the spear. Any unjust action that the government does will be executed or defended by you. I don't think it's the same thing at all.
 
The so called "War on Drugs" is a multi-billion dollar boondoggle who's only reason for existence is the perpetuation of "the system."
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bad_dad_brad hit the nail on the head.

How the hell do I know these guys storming my house at 4 in the morning are really cops? Why shouldn't I shoot?

No knock warrants, ESPECIALLY for victimless crimes like drugs, NEED to STOP. NOW.
 
What shocks me the most about these incidents is the cavalier manner in which they're conducted. If I were a member of an armed entry team on the trail of a legitimate gang member or hardened criminal, and had a tip that he or she would be at an address, I'd do some investigative work beforehand to either confirm or deny the information I was given. Something as simple as an undercover agent disguised as a Domino's Pizza driver who'd gotten his addresses mixed up would have worked, and would have revealed that this was no fortified hideout but rather an ordinary family. What makes this even more unbelievable is that they've made similar mistakes before by rushing to judgment on the word of snitches who get time off their sentence for giving tips and thus give out false information in the hopes of reducing their punishment. If I made the same mistake twice, I'd be far more circumspect in the future, yet they don't seem to care and that's the frightening aspect of it all.

The only thing you can do in those situations is survive, hire the best attorney money can buy, try to get your story out on as many news outlets as you can, and then sue the living daylights out of everyone who even remotely had a say in giving the green light to the operation.
 
no knock gone bad

fedDC should I remind you of all the hoops you told us went on before a fed raid. According to you fed no nox seldom happen and should virtually never go wrong like this one. Yes this story needs more time to cook, but if correct that these guys were at the wrong house somebody gots some splaining to do!
 
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