Any ideas on my pawn shop sword?

[Steve499]

I found this Katana style sword in a pawn shop recently. It has a damascus blade which is inscribed on both sides, the inscription extending beneath the brass whatchamacallit. The inscription on the other side is in some different language than the one shown but my camera shot craps on me in the middle of my photo session. There is nothing written on the tang under the handle other than the small amount of inscription concealed by the brass at the guard. Both scabbard and hilt are lacquered leather, I believe maybe ray skin. An acquaintance of mine who is interested in these things said he thought it may be Chinese manufactured for the Japanese during their occupation in the late 30s and early 40s. Any ideas or comments?

Steve

 

[Zero_DgZ]

That looks about consistient with a dubya-dubya-two era officer's sword. It was a little before my time, but if I remember right it was forbidden to take those things home though lots of folks did it anyway.

They turn up in flea markets and pawn shops from time to time, fetching a wide array of prices. In general, as a sword, they aren't worth a whole heck of a lot - 150 to 350 bucks, usually, as they were mass produced and while battle worthy ain't really uncommon or anything much better than you could buy from the Hanwei forge today for 200 bucks brand new.

The fact that this sword has a damascus looking blade is highly unusual - Most of these pieces were made from plain steel and edge tempered. It's possible that this sword may predate the war, and I couldn't tell you anything else about it other than it may have belonged to somebody important who probably got a bullet for his trouble and his sword stolen. (In olde Japan, it is considered honorable return the sword of a fallen soldier to his family if you can. To wit, the USA returned a whole pile of war take-homes to Japan a number of years ago, and the general Japanese attitude was that it was about bloody time.)

I no speaka very well, so you might want to try to contact somebody who can read Japanese (looks like a mixture of katakana and kanji you've got going on there) and see if they can dechipher what it says. My guess is something along the lines of "so and so, son of so and so, serving in such and such unit." But it may date the sword which could be a good tidbit of info.

Interesting that this sword has no handle wrapping other than the leather.

 

[ocelot777]

I'm no expert, but I understand that it was quite common in WWII for Japanese officers to have an 'heirloom' blade refurnished in a 'modern' style so that it could be carried on active duty. Consequently, swords that appear at first glance to be 'shingunto' ('new war swords -- made in wartime by non-traditional methods, often from old railway track steel and the like apparently) may prove to be a valuable blade under all the khaki paint and steel scabbard.

Shingunto often (or possibly always) have Roman numerals stamped on the tang. The fact that your blade doesn't may thus be a good sign!

A friend of mine found such a sword which was identified (by Victor Harris at the British Museum) as a rather fine blade from a few hundred years back, which was nice

The style of the blade also may offer clues as to age. There are some sites that have clear diagrams of the various styles and when they were in use (especially in terms of the 'kissaki' (pointy end), IIRC.

Hope that helps.

 

[ocelot777]

This may help:

http://swordforum.com/sfu/japanese/

 

[ocelot777]

Or this:

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sugata/shape.htm

Or try a google search for 'kissaki'.

 

[Steve499]

Thanks for the replies. I read those links, ocelot777, thanks. Now I really don't know what to think! My blade tapers toward the tip in both thickness and width. It is 'bumpy' looking when viewed down the length of the side as if the thickness varies slightly. I don't know what the point shape signifies but I have a picture of it anyway, as well as the writing on the other side of the blade. The tang is traditional and the damascus pattern can be seen on the forward part of it as well. I can't see an obvious temper line but the damascus pattern doesn't reach all the way to the blade edge so when viewed along the length a wavy line can be seen where it ceases. I'm just pleased to have an example of a forge welded blade, regardless of it's origins since I dabble in blacksmithing and know how much skill (I don't have it) it takes to produce one.

Steve

 

[Don Gwinn]

Man, that makes me jealous. Not only do you have a really NEAT blade (who cares if it's worth a fortune or not--it's interesting) but you have a mystery to unravel. I've never heard of a pattern-welded blade of the kind with which we're familiar here in the West coming from Japan. That kind of random damascus pattern (almost a water pattern?) doesn't look to me like it came from the traditional "folding" methods, but I don't think the shingunto were were pattern-welded either--maybe it comes from a period and place when steel was REALLY getting hard to come by, but they insisted on continuing to produce swords anyway?

Makes me think there could be any number of really great stories behind this.

 

[Steve499]

I'd be very surprised if it originated in Japan. I have zero expertise in this area, or any area as far as that goes, but when I was a lad of 12 or 13, a friend of mine and I used to take his father's WWII bring-back Japanese sword out to the weed patch behind his barn and make war on the head high weeds there. I cringe today at the memory! At any rate, the workmanship on that sword was noticeably better than this one. That blade did not show any damascus pattern and was very even and well finished. Also, the inscription on one side of this blade is in some language I have no clue of. I'm wondering if it was perhaps made in some part of Southeast Asia, maybe during the same time frame as speculated earlier. Anyway, the investigation continues. Thanks for any and all W.A.G.s on it's origin.

Steve

 

[LegendaryItaliano]

That is in no way shape or form a blade originating from Japan. It is most likely a chinese reproduction. The grain or hada you see in the blade was most likely created by an etching solution as is common to try to immitate age. The dead give away to me was the tip or kissaki of the blade as it is a crude rendering of what a proper one should look like. These blades can be found all over e-bay, advertised as antique katana with a number or code beside the title.

 

[MadMercS55]

Going from my experiences with similar pieces on Ebay and various Gun\knife shows. That does appear to be of Chinese origin. There are alot of them floating around out there. They are generally crude and in most cases the sellers attempt to pass them off as an antique due to the fake aging process applied to them. No way is that an older Japanese blade.

 

[hso]

LegIt's probably correct. The folding in nohinto isn't that grossly displayed and would be nearly undetectable even with an etch. I've got a couple of the chinese ebay swords. I took them both to the hammerin at Harley's and the guys looked them over and handled them and pronounced them as genuine Chinese katanas. They also decided, after prodding and poking and "tinking" that one is "ok" , but the other is actually an excellent sword , but still not nohinto.

 

[LegendaryItaliano]

I think it is also important to warn you if you have any intention of trying to use the blade if you are not experianced enough to do so. Hacking wildly into trees and such should be avoided.
Consequently, that "brass whatchamacallit" is called a habaki
My advise is to hang that bad boy up on a wall as an interesting conversation piece for when your friends come over and ask if its one of them "simereye serds".
If on the other hand you are interested in seeing what authentic japanese made swords are supposed to look like, lemme know and I'll be happy to post you some links.

I found this Katana style sword in a pawn shop recently. It has a damascus blade which is inscribed on both sides, the inscription extending beneath the brass whatchamacallit. The inscription on the other side is in some different language than the one shown but my camera shot craps on me in the middle of my photo session. There is nothing written on the tang under the handle other than the small amount of inscription concealed by the brass at the guard. Both scabbard and hilt are lacquered leather, I believe maybe ray skin. An acquaintance of mine who is interested in these things said he thought it may be Chinese manufactured for the Japanese during their occupation in the late 30s and early 40s. Any ideas or comments?

Steve

 

[Steve499]

Thanks for the advice, but my hacking wildly days, both literally and figuratively, have receeded a regretfully long distance behind me. I bought this sword for a song. If you heard me sing, that would give you an even better idea of the cost. I have seen authentic Japanese made swords and was under no illusions this was one. I still wonder what language those inscriptions are in.

Steve

 

[mrmeval]

Don't be surprised when you see a Chinese blade that looks completely authentic. Hanwei is one maker but there is a new one that is damn good. Better balance than Hanwei and cheaper and as good as it gets when it comes to reproduction folded steel blades. An expert can tell either from a Japanese blade but they are good enough to fool even a good inspection by a novice. One of their less expensive blades sells for 350.00 retail.

That blade is pattern welded and probably etched. Pretty and not cheap but not Japanese. You'll also see them after someone's buried them for a while.

Pattern welded damascus.

Look at Taka Hira

 

[dfaugh]

I know (just) a little about these swords, as I've always been highly interested in them. (I only own one, a 400 yr old that I purchased in Brazil) It's almost surely a fairly modern blade, where it might've been made I don't know. I've never seen one with a Damascus blade. As mentioned, probably an attempt to make it look old

Having said all that, I've never seen anything at all like it, anywhere(and I've seen alot of different ones). So it has some "value" as a rarity and curiosity. It also appear to be in really good shape (both the sword and scabard). A very neat piece.

 

[mrmeval]

There are fakes that command more than the real thing in some cases.
Some of the Kyber Pass Webley and Enfield knockoffs seem to be increasing in value. And there are forged paintings that command more than the original because there are so few of that forgers work out there.

 

[CWL]

Looks of Chinese manufacture. Unfortunately, they are not rare. They are being made thru-out China, mostly for the counterfeit antiquities market to gullible tourists. Entire villages and factories are set-up to manufacture them. Quality of the swords differ greatly, from poor to exceptional. I have two myself.

Yours looks like it has a machine-clipped point, is the edge honed like a knife? The rayskin looks pretty good although you may want to wrap the grip with cord to make it more authentic.

There is a history of Japanese blades being found in China (also Korea & SE Asia). Japan exported swords throughout Asia for centuries prior to modernization (hundreds of thousands). When Japan occupied Manchuria, they used old railroads tracks to make quality shin-gunto swords. Also, many were left behind during WWII. Any of these would be a rarity.