Any Other 445 Supermags?

[bluetopper]

Did any other manufacturors ever make guns for the 445 Super Mag cartridge besides Dan Wesson?

I love the 44 and it would be neat to have the 445 available to those who like the big super magnum handguns.

I think I would prefer it to the 454 or 460 Magnum.

 

[Action_Can_Do]

Thompson will make a custom barrel for you in any of the supermags, but that's the only other maker I know of.

 

[snooperman]

I have the Dan Wesson 445 supermag with an 8" barrel...

and would much prefer it than the 454 Casull or the 460. I bought it many years ago when I was into competition shooting. It is very accurate and I have taken much game with it.

 

[45crittergitter]

I think some custom revolver makers handle it... Gallagher, Bowen, et. al. There's probably a custom levergun or two out there also.

 

[snooperman]

Gunbroker has 3 Dan Wessons for sale...

One is NIB for $1500.

 

[mes227]

I have a DW .445 Supermag stainless and a 44 Rhino blue (a customized DW which chambers both the .445 SM and the more powerful wildcat 44 Rhino). They shoot fantastic and the recoil is more manageable than a 454 Casull, though not drastically so. The .445 SM will sling out a 240 gr bullet at over 1,600 fps; or a 300 grain at 1,400 fps producing over 1,300 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. The Casull is a bit more robust, launching a 300 grain bullet at 1,650 fps and producing 1,800 ft-lbs ME.

Price-wise, a very good condition DW .445 SM (blue or stainless) should sell for $1,000 or less. The ones on GunBroker right now are over priced. Let them sit for awhile then offer the sellers $800 to $1,000 and see where it gets you. All the DW SuperMags sell for about the same price regardless of caliber, and I've bought 5 in the past year, all for that price range and all in excellent condition. The exception is the .414 SM, of which very few were produced. They are hard to find and seem to sell for circa $2,000 (one was recently on GunsAmerica for $2,500 but didn't sell; that same one is now listed on GunBrokers for the same min bid, no bidders). Not in the SM family but equally collectible is the DW .460 Rowland, which is the rarest of the group and impossible to find for under $2,000 (and hard to find at that).

 

[45crittergitter]

You're the first person I've heard of with a .44 Rhino except for some gunwriter...

 

[mes227]

The Rhino is a nice gun! Shoots 44 spcl, 44 Mag, .445 SM and the wildcat 44 Rhino (made from 30-40 Krag brass).

 

[CraigC]

There were Sevilles/El Dorados made in the SuperMags. All three of them. IMHO, the best .445 comes in the form of a rechambered Ruger Maximum with a Bisley conversion.

 

[mes227]

Rugher made a.357 Maximum Blackhawk -- the .357 Maximum (aka Maxi) is the same as the .357 SuperMag.

And here's a couple of pix of my 44 Rhino!

 

[unspellable]

SuperMags

First, the 357 SuperMasg is NOT the same cartridge as the 357 Maximum, it differs on several points, and will not chamber in the Ruger. There seems to be constant and never ending confusion on this point. The wierd part is that the Dan Wesson is chambered for the 357 SuperMag even though the barrel shroud is marked 357 Maximum. My understanding is that the Seville was also chambered for the 357 SuperMag.

As for the 44 Rhino, when I saw it some years ago,, it was based on a cut down 444 Marlin case and had a larger base diameter that the 44 Mag or 445 SuperMag. Hence, not interchangable. In the early days the 445 SuperMag was commonly loaded on expandded 30-40 brass. There are a couple of other 44 caliber Supermag class wildcats out there. I'd like to hear the exact details on what the shooter above has.

 

[mes227]

First, the 357 SuperMasg is NOT the same cartridge as the 357 Maximum, it differs on several points, and will not chamber in the Ruger. There seems to be constant and never ending confusion on this point. The wierd part is that the Dan Wesson is chambered for the 357 SuperMag even though the barrel shroud is marked 357 Maximum. My understanding is that the Seville was also chambered for the 357 SuperMag.

As for the 44 Rhino, when I saw it some years ago,, it was based on a cut down 444 Marlin case and had a larger base diameter that the 44 Mag or 445 SuperMag. Hence, not interchangable. In the early days the 445 SuperMag was commonly loaded on expandded 30-40 brass. There are a couple of other 44 caliber Supermag class wildcats out there. I'd like to hear the exact details on what the shooter above has.

My Dan Wesson .357 SuperMax chambers and fires .357 Maxis just fine. The difference is that the Maxi is 0.005" shorter than the .357 SuperMag (but otherwise of the same diameter), and thus any revolver chambered for the SuperMag will also chamber the Maxi but not the reverse. Since the Ruger was chambered for the Maxi it may not chamber the SuperMag (though the .005" difference might not prohibit it), but the Wessons chambered for the SM can (and do) chamber and shoot the Maxi.

As to the .44 Rhino, there's a great article by Donald Pike titled ".44 Rhino The Biggest Six Shooter" which clearly sets out the 30-40 Krag as the parent for the .44 Rhino. Some people did make different wildcats (not called Rhinos) from 444 Marlin brass but that process was considerably more complicated than working from the 30-40 Krag. And I can assure you that my Rhino safely chambers and shoots the .445 SM and .44 Mag - with the ctg fitting snuggly in the chambers. The chambers are the same diameter as my .44 Mags but accept a case 1.75" long (versus the 1.60" for the SM). don't think that the Rhino will accept a case made from .444 Marlin brass as the diameters are incompatible.

Here's a link to the Donald Pike piece: http://www.danwessonforum.com/dwf-content/articles/Rhino0001.pdf which gives a great discussion on the Rhino development.

 

[unspellable]

Did you read all of my post? I said the Dan Wesson is actually chambered for the 357 SuperMag in spite of being marked 357 Maximum. I meant exactly what I said.

The 357 Maximum chamber has a nominal length of 1.610 which means if the tolerances fall the wrong way it might not chamber a SuperMag case with a nominal length of 1.610 as opposed the 357 Maximum's MAX case length of 1.605. But that 0.005 or so difference in case length is not the really significant difference. The 357 SuperMag has an OAL that's 0.125 longer than the Max. That's why it won't chamber in the Ruger. It also runs higher pressure than the MAX. It was designed to push a heavy for caliber bullet, something the MAX cannot do without sacrificing boiler room.

The 357 SuperMag started life as a wildcat designed by Elgin Gates. Ruger & Remington felt inspired and decided to commercialize it. But as sometimes happens they had to fix what wasn’t broke. (S&W did the same with the 22 Jet; the wildcat that inspired it had none of its problems.) Ruger did not want to make the frame window long enough to accommodate the SuperMag. Ruger and Remington had the notion to load a light bullet at hyper velocities. Elgin told them it wouldn’t work but they forged ahead and the infamous erosion fiasco was born. Something the true SuperMag shooters laughed at.

On the other hand, Dan Wesson agreed to chamber for the SuperMag. The only explanation I can offer for its being marked for the Max is that they wanted to take advantage of the fact that the Max was going commercial and would be seen on the shelves.

Elgin viewed them as two distinct cartridges and that’s from the horse’s mouth. A properly loaded SuperMag will not chamber in the Ruger. Ruger’s are solid revolvers and would probably stand up to the SuperMag’s higher pressure, but the cylinder isn’t long enough.

If you dig deep enough you will find different loading data for the SuperMag.

At the time the distinction between the two was clear, but ever since there has been endless confusion on this point. I have to say that if it won’t chamber in a Ruger, it ain’t a Maximum.

 

[mes227]

At the time the distinction between the two was clear, but ever since there has been endless confusion on this point. I have to say that if it won’t chamber in a Ruger, it ain’t a Maximum.

__________________

That's probably the only distinction that matters!

 

[unspellable]

A bit more

A bit more than that. The original intention for the 357 SuperMag was to launch heavy for caliber bullets, 170 to 200 grains. With such bullets the SuperMag has more boiler room, runs higher pressure, and will outperfrom the Max. Using standard weight or lighter bullets the difference is smaller.

If handloading, one can in theory, exceed the SAAMI pressure for the Max, but you still don't have as much boiler room with a heavy bullet.

Remember, Elgin Gates said the Max wouldn't work, and it didn't as originally conceived. Today we can get good pe, but they are not the same as the factory load concept of a light bujllet at hyper velocities with ball powder.

 

[45crittergitter]

I made my .445 brass from .303 British, as I found it to be a closer match than .30-40 Krag. Both had to be neck reamed.

 

[DWFan]

One major difference between the .357 SuperMag and the .357 Maximum is the pressure it operates at. The older data rates the Maximum at 43-46 kpsi; current SAAMI standards are a ridiculously low 40 kpsi. The SuperMag was intended to be loaded to 48-51 kpsi; the same pressures as its parent case, the 5.6x50R.
The .445 was only available in the Dan Wesson as a factory revolver.
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm